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Tomo

You have been told - by kevin walters

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You can prove lots of things in a controlled environment when everything is planned including precisely when you will pull the throttle.

 

It is a whole lot different when it is not expected. I know that under certain circumstances in certain aircraft at the right altitude I could do the same thing ... if I was planning it. BUT why would you attempt it and risk it? This guy in the 182 planned every one of them, but if he had pulled the throttle 30 seconds earlier in each case ... what would have happened? He always had the option of opening up that good old 0-470 with 235HP on tap; that is not available in real world engine failure.

 

Kevin Walters might have a brash style, but his Ag Pilot CFI status should demonstrate all the credibility he needs. I would sit under his instruction any day and soon will.

 

 

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Although (thankfully) I've never had the experience of an unexpected EFATO, I know for absolute certain that my brain turns to mush under stress. During training, we talked about EFATOs at length. Just before entering the runway we discussed exactly what was going to happen and how I should react when the engine went out. 45 seconds later when the CFI pulled the throttle I froze, and we would have stalled straight into the trees if he hadn't been ready for me to do exactly that.

I know not to turn back; I visualise myself not turning back; but I have no idea exactly what I'm actually going to until the day when it actually happens. That's what scares me...

sf, that's a Human Factors issue.

 

We're all a little bit different in our reactions, so it's just a matter of being in a relaxed state and working on this issue.

 

The relaxed state would be at about 3000' in a climb and have an instructor pull the throttle on you repeatedly, responding by dropping the nose to glide attitude straight ahead, achieving a smooth transition.

 

You half knew he was going to pull the throttle then, so you would be quite relaxed.

 

The next step would be to go out for an hour and have him pull the throttle anywhere, any time, repeatedly, intermittantly.

 

The point here is not to carry through to a simulated forced landing as we usually do, but just to the point of controlled glide straight ahead.

 

You may even have to do a couple of hours of it, or practice once a month.

 

The result is likely to be that you will transfer the action to your subconscious as a normal raction, so no freeze, no scary, just immediate action.

 

If you do that you will know that no matter where the engine failure happens, you will be impacting the ground at glide speed, not stall speed, and that knowledge will be a further relaxant.

 

 

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The 182 wouldn't have made it except for the long runway, where he is actually touching down quite a distance away from where you would have a runway to land on in normal circumstances. I also reckon the power is above idle. Don't rely on what you see there It's very misleading. The stuff DJP put up is more relevant. The trike did a good job ( surprised me that it could) nev

 

 

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Guest Howard Hughes
So once we are at height it then becomes a forced landing without power where there are likely to be more options in accordance with our training and the runway may be option say if we're in the downwind leg.

Once we start turning crosswind it is no longer an EFATO! This of course brings into play a lot more opportunities, including crossing runways, downwind landings, etc...

Even in the aircraft I fly, in an EFATO situation we limit turning (unless absolutely necessary) to minimise performance degredation. If you lose your only source of power, you certainly don't want to be wasting what energy you do have (in the form of momentum and altitude) on unnecessary and dangerous turns.

 

 

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I totally agree with not turning back and landing ahead, and I will say that it is impossible to turn back and make it back to where you lifted off as the turn looses a lot of height so given that you were 500 feet or more and on a very long runway if you did get the nose down to best glide and made a turn you may reach the end of that very long long long runway, a very risky move, I would rather land under control and under no stress. The turn will take away the height you had and any attempt to stretch a glide could prove to be fatal. I have seen the fatal proof of a turn back. Good management and practice not luck is what is needed when the engine fails.

 

 

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To those of you who say I fail to get the message, I said the impossible turn was attractive, not that I would do it. I have to have a good headwind to use 31 instead of 13. 31 has a big downhill component so with a good headwind I should have the option of a 45 deg left turn into a less treed area, straight ahead is dense hardwood. Not a nice prospect. I am happy to carry a 10kt tailwind and also uphill rather than take off into trees. The alternative is not to fly with the wrong wind and I have been there.

 

 

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I'm not entirely certain, (meaning- correct me if I'm wrong, I've never flown a trike) but it would appear that the aircraft in both of those videos was at a comfortable flying speed and attitude, not in your usual takeoff & climb out attitude. I suspect that would make a significant difference to the outcome.

 

 

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That Trike was more like a hang glider with a motor attached, just like the new Airbourne T Lite model; you can use them for soaring.

 

I doubt you could do that in one of our modern two seat Airbourne Trikes, but correct me if I am wrong.

 

There is a real danger in showing this stuff, people will get a false sense of possibilities.

 

I also agree with Nev, that 182 was NOT at idle power when he simulated the engine failure, he pulled it right back just before the flare and then applied a bit of power to slow descent on settling. Each time you could hear more than idle speed on that 6 cylinder.

 

And don't those big sixes sound sweet ...

 

 

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make of this what you will

Don't forget the slower the aircraft the quicker the turn, try something like that at 65,70kts and you'll use all your height in just the turn. At 35-40kts things are much different!! Trikes are a bit different to 3 axis as well... so don't think it's, 'all okay' 'cause he did it!

 

 

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The fact that some dude can do it in a trike, when he's ready to cut the power, an after moving off the centerline, is about as relevant to a real life situation as the economic prosperity of Australia is to Julia Gilard.

 

Anyone could do that all day long. All the practicing is going to do is kill you when it does happen for real..... Please, no more videos.. They will do more harm than good.

 

 

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Don't forget the slower the aircraft the quicker the turn ...

Aaaaah Tomo - you may like to think about this some more.
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Apologies in advance if this video upsets anyone, however it is a good demonstration of what happens if a turn back after EFATO is attempted.

 

 

Don't let it be you! Turning back is not an option!

 

 

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Guest SAJabiruflyer
another one. made me grab my seat a few times

Chi ma gun. Which my Chinese wife tells me is "next level of idiot".

 

 

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I am guessing why the impossible turn kills people is that people panic, they think of that big wide runway behind them and then look @ those trees ahead and think must try a steep turn without power for the first time in my life...

 

Those videos show you can make it back if you are high and close enough to the strip. Can I put spins and the impossible turn into the same category of "survivable with the right training"?

 

 

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Aaaaah Tomo - you may like to think about this some more.

I probably should have worded it better... 035_doh.gif.37538967d128bb0e6085e5fccd66c98b.gif Was trying to say, the slower the aircraft the smaller the 'radius' of turn for a given bank angle. Sorry folks! 025_blush.gif.9304aaf8465a2b6ab5171f41c5565775.gif

 

 

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Can I put spins and the impossible turn into the same category of "survivable with the right training"?

 

I don't think so. The right training is not to attempt the impossible turn at all.

 

 

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but for many lighter and slower aircraft a viable option with the right height and distance, what kills pilots is the steep turn with out power creating a stall.

 

 

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I think you mean lighter or smaller not slower

No, he got it right that time... He gets the soup now... No soup for YOU!!... Hehe

 

 

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