solomon Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Hey guys, I’m thinking of becoming a commercial pilot once I finish high school, and I know there are many ways to become a commercial pilot, but I want to know the least expensive way of doing it. I was going to join the air force first then change over to commercial, but they have a 12 year contract, and I’m not to shore if that’s what I want to be doing for the next 12 years. Any help would be great! Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Most people would find a way to put up with 12 years in the Air Force. The bare commercial won't get you a job. That's the problem. You need at least 600 hours of suitable experience, including (hopeflly) turbine multi, pressurised etc and it's a gamble anyhow. Airlines are boom/bust shows. You get a degree in the Air Force. Will they still have pilots in service craft in 12 years? These days working for some airlines is not that much fun anyhow. They treat you like $hit.. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solomon Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 Most people would find a way to put up with 12 years in the Air Force. The bare commercial won't get you a job. That's the problem. You need at least 600 hours of suitable experience, including (hopeflly) turbine multi, pressurised etc and it's a gamble anyhow. Airlines are boom/bust shows. You get a degree in the Air Force. Will they still have pilots in service craft in 12 years? These days working for some airlines is not that much fun anyhow. They treat you like $hit.. Nev Hmm... I was thinking of joining Qantas, but don’t know how I’m going to get hours up with a multi turbine aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Well, If you can get some form of cadetship you have to assess the pro's and cons of what's available. The Airlines like qualifications in physics and maths and probably computer skills too. The entry level depends on supply and demand. Experience on the better types comes with having previous employment generally. A "bare'"endorsement won't get you a lot. but if you have other experience, and an endorsement on a type used by your prospective employer you are sort of ready to go in the RHS. Don't spend money without evaluating where it will take you. Most get a job to get their hours up, and sometimes they don't get to be too fussy about the first one. You have to make it happen Sol. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Well, If you can get some form of cadetship you have to assess the pro's and cons of what's available. The Airlines like qualifications in physics and maths and probably computer skills too. The entry level depends on supply and demand. Experience on the better types comes with having previous employment generally. A "bare'"endorsement won't get you a lot. but if you have other experience, and an endorsement on a type used by your prospective employer you are sort of ready to go in the RHS. Don't spend money without evaluating where it will take you. Most get a job to get their hours up, and sometimes they don't get to be too fussy about the first one. You have to make it happen Sol. Nev Nev is telling you like it is Solomon. You have to make it happen. If you want someone else to pay for your training, you're going to have to get your $h%t together and convince them that you're the best man for them to invest in, for that's what they're doing. They're investing in you. And that's going to take serious planning and effort on your part to convince them that you'll repay them their investment. But if you want it bad enough young man, and you put in the effort, it can be done. Especially through the millitary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryanm Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 You will be very unlikely to get a mutli-engine job with only 600 hours let alone turbine. As facthunter has said, with a bare CPL, you will be competing with a lot of other CPL's in the same position. It seems the best way to get a foot in the door is to head north to a place like Broome or Kununurra. Even then it isn't easy unfortunately. Basically be prepared to go looking for the job, and this may very well mean living at a station, or community well away from a major city. There is now the cadetship way as well, but I would have a good long look at the fine print. In a nutshell there really isn't an easy path to get into the commercial world. A lot has to do with timing (Being ready when the market is calling for pilots). I would strongly suggest studying a trade or a uni degree or anything as a back-up for the off chance that the flying doesn't work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 When I got my commercial and instructor rating grade 3 instructors were getting less than a cleaner. Flying up north required you to be more a stunt man than a pilot. On top of that I could not fly at night-have your eyes checked for colour vision. My brother in law, working in the airlines in Dubai, left because of poor working conditions. I saw an Aircrash Investigation show were part of the cause of a big accident was the pilot could not afford a hotel and was intermittantly sleeping somewere on a couch. I don't want to sound like a party poop, but it's not all glamour and very espensive now. I started off at Rex Aviation in Brisbane paying $35 per hour with instructor and no landing fees and no examination fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongie Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Yeah I wish it was as easy as "becoming" a "(working) commercial pilot. The wages scared me off years ago (not that I had the money back then to do a ppl, let alone a cpl). And another thing to think about, I don't think military rating directly translate to a ppl or cpl, although I'm sure with all the training you get, it wouldn't be too hard to bridge the gap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Yeah I wish it was as easy as "becoming" a "(working) commercial pilot. The wages scared me off years ago (not that I had the money back then to do a ppl, let alone a cpl). And another thing to think about, I don't think military rating directly translate to a ppl or cpl, although I'm sure with all the training you get, it wouldn't be too hard to bridge the gap Hongie your right I believe. I was speaking to an Airforce instructor mate here and although he has flown Hercs internationally, he doesnt qualify for an ATPL. Has to do all the exams. Kind of weird really. I was busting my gut to get an Airline job, passed my ATPL, but talking to another Airline Pilot he said it was the most boring job he has ever had! Solomon, If you love flying as much as I do, there are plenty of other far better paying jobs that will allow you to fund your flying in your recreational time. Christ im a Pool Technician now and earning more than Commercial Pilots! I get to enjoy my aviation time building my own plane! In saying that I would still give my left nut to be able to fly everyday and be paid for it! Weigh it all up and see what will best suit your lifestyle in the future! Your a smart lad from what I have seen and you can do anything you set your mind to but you have to do it! Good luck Scotty 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solomon Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 Thanks guys, I'll find a way. But my friend’s dad works for Qantas and he's a captain earning just over $500,000 a year! It was also on the news when Qantas pilots went on strike because they weren’t getting paid enough even though they're already earning half a million a year, but I guess tax would probably bring it down to maybe between $350,000 to $400'000. Which is still quite a fair bit of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Hi Solomon, Not all QANTAS captains get over $500 000 a year.Very few do.The highest paid A380 Captain got paid $536 000.Average wages for a A380 Captain is (only lol) $415 000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Thanks guys, I'll find a way. But my friend’s dad works for Qantas and he's a captain earning just over $500,000 a year! It was also on the news when Qantas pilots went on strike because they weren’t getting paid enough even though they're already earning half a million a year, but I guess tax would probably bring it down to maybe between $350,000 to $400'000. Which is still quite a fair bit of money. Hi Solomon, "Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see", this is a good saying and if you live by it it will stop you being let up the garden path. I have no idea what a Qantas captain earns, so can't say whether your friend is being honest or not. BUT if you are going to make big decisions in life (this one is going to take you years to accomplish) then you need to make sure that you prove the key points that are leading you in this direction rather than take somebody's word for it. Regards Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I would try and get into the RAAF as direct entry aircrew or via ADFA with a degree then aircrew training . 12 years isnt that bad.I did about 9.5 years.It was great. Cant comment on the Navy or the Army didnt have much to do with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 It is very competitive, whether it is in the civil or military side of things. Look at how many aviation students (doing CPLs) who go through Swinburne and RMIT every year. Both Unis have career days/nights - they must be coming up soon. Go along and ask where their graduates end up. They will have some stats on how many end up in the front of a big jet, how many fail to get their CPL, how many get their CPL at great expense but never work as a pilot. Talk to those who have succeeded to learn how they did it - whether it is Matt Hall or a 380 Captain, most are approachable. The harder you work the luckier you are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 It is very competitive, whether it is in the civil or military side of things. Look at how many aviation students (doing CPLs) who go through Swinburne and RMIT every year. Both Unis have career days/nights - they must be coming up soon. Go along and ask where their graduates end up. They will have some stats on how many end up in the front of a big jet, how many fail to get their CPL, how many get their CPL at great expense but never work as a pilot. Talk to those who have succeeded to learn how they did it - whether it is Matt Hall or a 380 Captain, most are approachable.The harder you work the luckier you are. They did it by being good and charming in that order. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Swinburne's Aviation Career Expo is on later this month. http://www.swinburne.edu.au/engineering/aviation/aviation-career-expo/ Check the RAeS website for their aerospace engineering/aviation careers night with RMIT - I guess it will be next month. http://www.raes.org.au/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 About a year ago there was a news story going out that some airlines are hireing and training 18 year olds to captain their fleet, paying them around $26000 a year. Next they'll have a system where passengers with flying experience are asked to assist in flying the plane. Nobody volunteers, we dont go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 They did it by being good and charming in that order. Unless things have changed dramatically from when I was inthe RAAF (Non aircrew) you need much more of the former and less of the latter.....charming for entry level aircrew is not that important because like children they should be seen but not heard!! Whether you continue to proceed is all about how good you are!! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Very small percentage of Qantas pilots getting those figures and that may include overnight allowances.check capt allowances etc. Pilots in the future will not achieve those salaries because (like you Solomon,) there are a lot of super keen pilots who would almost do it for nothing, and there are plenty of operators who would love to take advantage of that situation. Most of my working life has been in aviation including 25 years in Airlines. I wouldn't have missed that opportunity. The planes I flew were a never to be repeated experience at a time in aviation which has passed. We had Pilots inTop Management. That doesn't happen today and management are accountants who frankly would not have a clue what a pilots or a maintenance engineers life or job is, and care even less.. It's a race to the bottom and all that matters is cost cutting. None of my four kids would consider flying as a job. (Why is that)? They know how many times I would be called out at Xmas and New Years eve to cover for some "SOD" who went sick a few hours before departure IF you want to enjoy flying do it in your own plane when YOU feel like it , when you don't go if the plane is not how you want it. Ive done 23 hours on single duty and it's legal ( carry one extra Pilot). It's not glamour mate, You sometimes, at the end of the day look back at the plane and feel you carried the whole thing on your back all the way.. Nice place to visit but you mightn't want to live there. Nev 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Unless things have changed dramatically from when I was inthe RAAF (Non aircrew) you need much more of the former and less of the latter.....charming for entry level aircrew is not that important because like children they should be seen but not heard!! Whether you continue to proceed is all about how good you are!!Andy Yep, I was only reading yesterday.Nothing has changed with RAAF aircrew training.If you dont understand something the person has one more chance to get up to speed.After that your sent packing.And we have to remember that those guys after their inial basic training /evaluation at Tamworth flying CT4's.Strap themselves into PC9's. A 300knot 25 000 feet machine.It is a 34 week very intensive course on the PC9.The RAAF dont have average pilots, they culled in the training.Fact of life for a military trainee pilot. Anyhow, have a crack at it anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwicrusader Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I strongly suggest you do a class 1 medical before you spend any money on flight training. No point spending all that money and then finding out you can't pass the medical. All aspects of aviation seem to be boom or bust, a second string to your bow or another trade is a very good idea. It would also pay to remember the qantas captains on 500k are probably close to retirement when they start earning this coin. There is decades of flying to do first and you start on pitiful wages to begin with. A flying career is a huge commitment and it takes along time to get the return on your investment. I'm not trying to talk you out of it but make sure you do all the research before starting. All the best with whatever you choose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I guess all those happy smiling faces of the crew as you depart your flight have been well rehearsed. Also, any medical problems you get can stop your career dead. I knew an ex-airline pilot working as a ground instructor. He had an epileptic fit and never saw a flight deck again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 There was a guy working for the same Company I do as a network administrator, looking after all the Cisco routers, switches call managers etc. He was an ex Qantas cadet who had trained up to learjet (or equivalent, small twin jet business beast) Network admins get a good income of around $80k to $120k pa depending on experience and certifications. The best thing for him was that as he had the ATPL he flew Mr "Ingham" chickens around australian on the weekends in the ingham lear out of melbourne, up to Ballina and back (2 trips there and back) most weekends. That didnt pay fantastically but the chance to build commercial hours flying a Lear....priceless. Now that is how to have an ATPL and use it to best advantage......Due to economic downturns during his cadetship Q never did call him up for active service in the yr or 2 that he was on call to them..... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Looking back over the years I have spent sitting behind and watching Professional Pilots, it is my opinion that the training military pilots get is the best there is. However, should you choose to go that way Solomon, you will face two massive challenges. The first will be getting selected. The second will be completing the training. Having said that, I'll now say that I don't know, nor have I ever met anyone who knows for sure, how a young person can guarantee being selected for military pilot training. But I can tell you for sure how not to get selected, Solomon. Not getting selected is easy. Just don't try. Not trying will positively guarantee you do not get selected... It is very competitive, whether it is in the civil or military side of things. Look at how many aviation students (doing CPLs) who go through Swinburne and RMIT every year. Both Unis have career days/nights - they must be coming up soon. Go along and ask where their graduates end up. They will have some stats on how many end up in the front of a big jet, how many fail to get their CPL, how many get their CPL at great expense but never work as a pilot. Talk to those who have succeeded to learn how they did it - whether it is Matt Hall or a 380 Captain, most are approachable.The harder you work the luckier you are. djpacro has given you some good advice here, Mate... Act on it if you're serious about being a commercial pilot. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Solomon, you should read and heed much of the good advice you will have read by here. I have 4 sons, all of whom I trained, and only 1 of them is flying professionally, (with RFDS in Sydney), and he arrived there after a 6 year stint in airlines which he hated! The others all work in other professions - 2 in mining project design and management. All have non-current PPL's. They earn heaps more than as a pilot, have good work hours,and enjoy an uninterrupted family life. But, there's always the 'glam' side of professional flying. Last week, I was giving a new student their 2nd lesson, and they enthused 'yours has got to be the best job, in the best office, in Australia!' It was one of those lovely south coast days, cool, calm, crisp, cloud off the coast, and the water and land vividly coloured. The engine purring smoothly and the radio chatter minimal. I have to agree. I love my instructing, and every flight is a new adventure...even a challenge! But, it didn't just happen to fall in my lap, so to speak. Nothing good ever does, really. 50 years ago, I went overseas to work because it was where you could save $$$. I then put myself through PPL, then scraped and saved to buy into an early group ownership aircraft, and pushed through to CPL using this. But, in 1965, there were more CPL's driving taxis than there are now MBA's! So - back o/s to a little island just N of OZ, and many years pushing rough and ready singles and twins around big hills. After that, I did my ag and instructor ratings with 5k hours time up. Things I'd learned in the real world - greatly helped me become a rounded instructor. Going RPT with QF is an admirable goal, but if you work your way through the many parts of aviation - you might find that you'll find your own niche, perhaps where you least expect to. You don't have to fly airlines to be a professional pilot. And, take the previous advice and do a trade or higher education, because you need to be multi-skilled in this life. Anyway, I've probably written more than I needed, but good luck. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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