Ben Longden Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 Agreed... working out how longer he can stay in the sky is paramount- and based on that, he can be helped to the nearest landing area, preferably with fuel. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 Having established how long they can stay in the air I would be asking things along the lines of: When and where was your last positive fix? Approximately what heading have you been flying since then (if known)? Do you have a transponder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 And.... who the hell sent you out on your own???....no only kidding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 And.... who the hell sent you out on your own??? Hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Would calling Melbourne/Brisbane center, ident yourself on transponder and ask for a location and/or vector be an option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 That's what I was getting at. Try to give them a rough idea of where to look and then hit the button while they watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Yea, if your in a radar environment then thats obviously the best option, they'll get you to sqark a code.. but, thats not always available..And, as i discovered a while ago, you can't be sure of getting that right.. I was on a nav with the chief, a guy got himself lost and started to panic..syd radar asked him to sqawk a code, but he couldn't work the transponder out, then they asked him to sqawk ident, but he couldn't find the button..We could tell by his radio calls the guy was panicky, radar tried to talk him through the operation of the SSR but he couldn't get it happening.. When stress goes up performance comes down, and down, and down..untill simple task's become impossible. They asked him to do 2 obrits.. he said ok, then 3 mins later they called him up and asked how the orbits went to which he replied "but im no where near the harbour, how can i do orbits??"... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Oh, dear. That sounds bad. Never operated a transponder before? Or only to the point where he turned it to "Alt" because the checklist told him so without knowing and understanding what a transponder does? How much is that part of the RA-Aus syllabus anyway? There seems to be a reasonable description of them in the RT book in the ATC student pilot kit. (which is PPL oriented) I know that even some otherwise very smart people shut down when under stress but I would say most of us should be old enough to know this about ourselves and, if we are prone to doing that, find a hobby that doesn't get you killed if you do so. I am pretty sure I don't, but we'll know for sure in my first emergency, which I am sure will happen sooner or later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Yea, its a good thing to know about oneself isn't it.. This dude was in a c172, wasn't RAA.. (think it was a 172).. See the problem was, they were telling him to look for the 'ident' button..Most transponders the ident is marked IDT.. that was enough to throw him.. unforgivable that use of the SSR wasn't covered more before first solo nav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 It also sounds like a severe confidence issue. Didn't have the confidence to start pushing buttons on the transponder to see what would happen. Didn't have the confidence to say he didn't understand their orbit request, etc... Yet somehow enough confidence to get into an airplane on his own, strangely enough. (or not enough confidence to admit he wasn't!) Thinking about it, I have seen people been told to orbit entering the circuit at YPPF. (once, to stay out of my way) I have not been instructed on how to do them (left? right? any direction away from the airfield? Plus I don't have a coordinator on board so I'd have to judge it which takes experience, I guess.) and with solos coming up soon no doubt, it could happen to me. In that case it would have to be a big fat "negative" (with explanation why!) so the controllers can find another solution to their separation problem - I ain't gonna muck about and pretend to know what I am doing. There's enough of that going on at YPPF without me joining in! I'll ask my instructor about them next weekend, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 It also sounds like a severe confidence issue. Didn't have the confidence to start pushing buttons on the transponder to see what would happen. Didn't have the confidence to say he didn't understand their orbit request, etc... Yet somehow enough confidence to get into an airplane on his own, strangely enough. (or not enough confidence to admit he wasn't!) G'day Bass, I think there is a lot in the comments that have been made so far about performance suffering badly under stress. Some of us have the wonderful facility where our world "slows down" for us when the excreta and the propeller meet. For others their stress levels rise and their performance quickly falls. I think it's well recognised that some level of "arousal" is important for optimum performance and that beyond that optimum level of arousal performance generally falls. You can just imagine the stress in the cockpit: The guy has probably had building stress for some time as his situation deteriorated and as the stress built so his performance began to suffer. At the point he called for help he may already have been in a very poor performance place. So perhaps not a confidence thing but a personal performance thing in the face of stress. Kind regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Yep for sure.. It was a valuable lesson for me, hearing it all go down and being in the same area at the time. The more that was asked of him the worse he got. And i agree, he was in a high stress (low performance state) by the time he called up..He didn't even use a callsign at first..just that he's lost.. He could see the ocean in the distance, that would have been my last resort, just head for the coast, something is bound to pop out then. Mind you he was over some pretty rugged tiger country sw of sydney, there's bugga all out there to get a good fix on.. So if anything can be gained from the story for us, it would be to get onto it early, don't wander around letting things get worse, don't change your heading untill you have a fix, its much easier to get back to a fix point if youve maintaned heading, but after 1 or 2 turns, it all goes out the window.. So as soon as you think your in trouble, swallow your pride, keep a level head and ask someone for help. Thats why they are there.. I think lots of guys need to realise that ATC are there for us.. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriteah Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Further to questions to ask: Is the plane insured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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