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Pindan

Jabiru 240 damage repair

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@ Fly tornado

 

Best idea yet and next time I run it off the runway it dosen't have a nose wheel to fix.................

 

Great for chasing sheep also, if they don't move just let off a few 50cal rounds into the bushes but doubt the salvage value of the 230 will cover the new purchase cost

 

 

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But if you were paid out and now have the airframe you chose to buy it from the insurer ... presumably because you thought you could repair it with the cash balance left from the insurance.

 

As an sla airframe it’s not easy to retain that as you need the manufacturer support - but you know that already as you consider Elsa.

 

As others point out repair out of assembly frame will get challenging. New fuselage will address that but cost quite a lot more than materials for repair unless you have to build a substantial assembly frame which you will.

 

I personally would be buying a new clean fuselage - best in long run as it will retain value more and be an easier rebuild.

 

 

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I personally would be buying a new clean fuselage - best in long run as it will retain value more and be an easier rebuild.

I know nothing about jabiru airfames, but this definately sounds like the best option to me, if you were looking to repair it.

 

Or is there potential to sell the wreck(somebody elses problem), add the insurance money, perhaps throw in a few dollars youself and buy a new aircraft?

 

 

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My opinion

 

I would take the inurance and buy a NEW one, and sell the wreck to a "builder" for whatever you can get.

 

Obviously I am not a builder.

 

 

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But if you were paid out and now have the airframe you chose to buy it from the insurer ... presumably because you thought you could repair it with the cash balance left from the insurance.

As an sla airframe it’s not easy to retain that as you need the manufacturer support - but you know that already as you consider Elsa.

 

As others point out repair out of assembly frame will get challenging. New fuselage will address that but cost quite a lot more than materials for repair unless you have to build a substantial assembly frame which you will.

 

I personally would be buying a new clean fuselage - best in long run as it will retain value more and be an easier rebuild.

I had a pair of ST1 wings transported from Perth to Sydney, crated and top-loaded, for a little over $1200. The huge cost of two-way transport W.A - Bundaberg and return transport for the repair quoted by Jabiru would be very much affected by the volume of a J2x fuselage with horizontal stabiliser and fin already attached, not the weight. Without the horizontal stabiliser and fin attached, I suspect that cost would be very, very much less for the one-way trip Bundaberg-Perth.

 

The installation of the horizontal stabiliser and the fin is documented (I assume) in the J230 kit build instructions, so there is no 'repair scheme' cost. The work involved will be far easier than trying to achieve a fully satisfactory bonding and laminate build-up to an assembled fuselage: when you are working from the 'outside-in' on a structure that is assembled from the 'inside-out', it is exponentially more difficult (I speak from experience here.) When we were doing the fin replacement on our own Jab., my co-owner, who was filming the operation for the records, at one point asked me: 'Did you train as a Proctologist, or are you making this up as you go along?' ( it was the latter..)

 

 

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Sounds like a really easy repair to me. Check with the Gliding Federation of Australia to find a GFA repairer over there.

 

Ray

 

 

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Apparently the early Jabiru came as 2 sections for the fuselage. Does anyone have the drawings that came with the earlier kits?

 

 

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Just read of your trials and tribulations, sorry to hear of your misfortune. I have an early SP6, which came with the two seperate fuse halves, part of the fabrication included the bonding of the firewall to the top half. Additionally, I had a landing mishap in 2005 which resulted in extensive damage, repairs included replacement of the front lower fuse as well as the entire firewall. My aircraft was constructed under VH Experimental, so construction and repair was carried out by me, taking advice from my TC and the certifying LAME. Under this category, responsibility for the airworthiness of the aircraft rests wholly with the builder, so Jabiru takes no responsibility for the construction or subsequent repair. I don't know about other categories.

 

My experience with the company at that time was nothing less than totally positive, very helpful with advice especially regarding splicing layers of the fibreglass components etc, and they were only too happy to send me anything I wanted. As I recall, the total bill for the replacement parts was in the order of $10,000, which I felt was quite reasonable considering the aircraft would otherwise have been regarded as a total write-off.

 

It seems as though their attitude may have changed, maybe the fear of litigation is more of an issue now. While acknowledging the comments of some of the other contributors, frankly the joining of the firewall to the fuse was not much of a big deal, and I can send you the relevant parts of my construction manual as well as photos of the repairs carried out in 2005 if you like. Certainly you will need to take a lot of care with the alignment of the components, although to be honest, my airframe was not all that brilliant in that regard in the first place (especially around the door frames, which were fabricated in the factory). And as noted elsewhere, the C.G will be upset a bit, you may be surprised as to how much additional weight the repair will add!

 

Needless to say, anything I give you will be in good faith, and no responsibility taken for the results of your repair. It could be that there may be subtle differences between the construction of an SP and a 430. Anyhow, contact me directly if you like.

 

 

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A new bare fuse is $13750 + Gst............+ freight + time to strip the old one + time to refit completely ( so virtually a complete build ) + painting = buy a new aircraft

 

Also being a 24 Rego probabely not allowed to do anyway.

 

 

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A new bare fuse is $13750 + Gst............+ freight + time to strip the old one + time to refit completely ( so virtually a complete build ) + painting = buy a new aircraft

Also being a 24 Rego probabely not allowed to do anyway.

Cut your losses, and buy another one.

 

I noticed a really nice 230 on the Classified section of this Website recently!

 

 

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Cut your losses, and buy another one.I noticed a really nice 230 on the Classified section of this Website recently!

Plus you could probably sell the Serviceable bits like Radio and instruments from the wreck!

 

 

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Cut your losses, and buy another one.I noticed a really nice 230 on the Classified section of this Website recently!

If you are referring to 5127 at Townsville - it could be delivered for the cost of fuel, accommodation, and a return air fare as an option.

 

Obviously any purchases arrangements would between the owner (not me) and yourself. I have NO involvement with the aircraft other then knowing both the owner and the aircraft.

 

If I were to purchase an aircraft from WA I would go there and inspect it and bring it home myself - but just putting up an option FOI.

 

 

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If it were mine, I would have just fixed it and not told anybody. The repair would have cost much less than the insurance premium, which I would not have paid so it wouldn't have been insured anyway.

 

Yep, I am a grumpy and stingy old man. I think the word is curmudgeon.

 

There was a Jabiru in SA where the owner had "fixed" the firewall by adding new plywood front and back, sandwiching the damaged part and holding the whole thing together with through-bolts. He got away with this, but then he added a second fuselage fuel-tank behind the first and put the c of g too far back. This caused his crash and the firewall job was discovered.

 

 

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This story is a prime example of why a lot of the GA fraternity perceive RAA aviators as cowboys.

 

Repair to the Jabiru airframe does not cost a lot of $$ to do properly, but it does take a bit of time and care. The example quoted by Bruce would probably be OK as a temporary paddock repair, sufficient to get home so that the job could be done properly, I wonder how the associated damage to the fibreglass tub was treated?

 

 

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There are plenty of people who could carry out damage repairs to a high standard. The problems start when someone carries out repairs to critical areas, without input from the original the designers and engineers.

 

I would expect the firewall area of most aircraft is considered a critical-strength area. It all goes well until there's a prang, and then the inquiries and recriminations start.

 

I can recall a prang involving a bus many years ago. The bus ran off the road when the steering drag link snapped. There were fatalities and injuries, and an inquest as a result.

 

It was found the steering drag link of the bus had been shortened by cutting, and then rejoined by arc welding.

 

This is directly in contravention of all manufacturers and engineers recommendations as regards heat-treated steering components - who insist that critical, heat-treated steering components must never be cut, nor welded.

 

The mechanic who did the drag link repair was likely to be qualified and skilled as well. However, he carried out a critical repair without the necessary engineering/manufacturer input or reference.

 

It was fortunate for the mechanic, that he was unable to be identified due to the passage of time, and the destruction and loss of records over that passage of time.

 

That episode led pretty rapidly to much tighter controls over transport equipment steering repairs/modifications - as happens in every important area regulated by authorities.

 

 

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There are plenty of people who could carry out damage repairs to a high standard. The problems start when someone carries out repairs to critical areas, without input from the original the designers and engineers.I would expect the firewall area of most aircraft is considered a critical-strength area. It all goes well until there's a prang, and then the inquiries and recriminations start.

 

I can recall a prang involving a bus many years ago. The bus ran off the road when the steering drag link snapped. There were fatalities and injuries, and an inquest as a result.

 

It was found the steering drag link of the bus had been shortened by cutting, and then rejoined by arc welding.

 

This is directly in contravention of all manufacturers and engineers recommendations as regards heat-treated steering components - who insist that critical, heat-treated steering components must never be cut, nor welded.

 

The mechanic who did the drag link repair was likely to be qualified and skilled as well. However, he carried out a critical repair without the necessary engineering/manufacturer input or reference.

 

It was fortunate for the mechanic, that he was unable to be identified due to the passage of time, and the destruction and loss of records over that passage of time.

 

That episode led pretty rapidly to much tighter controls over transport equipment steering repairs/modifications - as happens in every important area regulated by authorities.

I remember that one; the Police did some exceptional detective work to trace the link and find the real cause of the crash. Safety Related Items require a much higher level of design skills - usually only available from the original manufacturer.

 

 

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And just why do you guys think I would be doing substandard repairs? Would you like to bet on this? I could arrange for a test on a repair I did.

Bruce. Unless I read it wrong, I didn't think Turbo or Roger were commenting on your ability to perform effective and/or correct repairs but in fact, their aspersions were directed towards the 'dodgy brothers' firewall fix which, apparently led to the ultimate destruction of the aircraft.

 

 

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There are plenty of people who could carry out damage repairs to a high standard. The problems start when someone carries out repairs to critical areas, without input from the original the designers and engineers.I would expect the firewall area of most aircraft is considered a critical-strength area. It all goes well until there's a prang, and then the inquiries and recriminations start.

Yes, this is absolutely correct, in every respect.

 

Jabs. are one of the most damage-tolerant and simple to repair aircraft there are, due to the 'low-tech' philosophy of construction. The resin (Araldite LC3600) is ambient-temp cure, with a decent spread of working temp. and humidity tolerance - ideally, 24C and no more than about 50% RH. The various 'glass reinforcement is also readily available - it is GOOD stuff, not Bunnings Aerospace crap - but when supplied from a reputable source ( e,g, Gurit, or CG Composites), you won't go wrong.

 

However, there is rather more than JUST having the right resin and 'glass. You MUST know not just the correct repair techniques, but also the laminate lay-up schedule.

 

If you do not have that information, and the expertise in 'glass repair work to aircraft standards, you are taking a huge risk.

 

 

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I agree Oscar.

 

Here is my position quite seriously:

 

1. I reckon we should stand for educated owner maintenance and repair.Without this we will be priced out of flying.

 

2.The guy ( pindan) who started this has NOTHING in common with that person in SA who did the sandwich "repair" of his firewall.( thanks Riley , I think I reacted too much ). pindan is asking for expert advice and help which is exactly correct. And exactly the opposite of that guy from the Eyre peninsular..

 

3. pindan got some good advice ( like how you can determine the layup layers from burning a sample) and I appreciate how remoteness makes things harder but I still think it ok for him to proceed given his ability to communicate with photos and text. If he does that through the repair then we can all help.

 

4. I hate how "safety" has become nothing more than a tool of oppression.By far, the most dangerous thing I do in flying is to fly lower than safe so as to leave completely unused airspace above me. This is forced on me by "safety" authorities, who stand to gain if I crash. I just don't believe they really care about my welfare. I want less "safety" and more common sense.

 

5. There is no design work in a repair. You simply have to reinstate what was there. If you use the correct materials, the correct scarf angles, the correct surface preparation and the correct alignment then you will have the same strength as the original. Maybe a little heavier as your layup will probably have a bit more resin than the original.

 

6. Retaining alignment can vary from a major exercise needing jigs , for example a fuselage with its back broken, to nearly nothing, as for example a hole or tear surrounded by undamaged material. Looking at pindans job, I doubt that there is an alignment problem but I have a lot of respect for what oscar says so I would be careful and check things out with levels and measurements.

 

7. And just for the record, I fly a kit-built Jabiru ( firewall and lots of other stuff all done by me) and a Libelle which was repaired from a $500 write-off.

 

So far, they have flown for many years without falling apart.

 

 

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Bruce's post above is an excellent summary, with which I totally agree.

 

And his Point #5 is the crux of the matter, indeed. Proved one can achieve the same structural result as the original then ipso facto the resultant structure is 'as good as new'.

 

One of the real difficulties is, of course, achieving certainty that one HAS achieved the same result. Documentation, test samples ( e.g. resin coupons, lay-up coupons etc.) may be essential for that, and practical load testing may also be required. It most certainly CAN be done: Alan Kerr's advice to me when developing the scheme for my own written-off Jab. was: 'anything can be repaired, the question is - is it economically viable?' Since Alan not only did a huge amount of work on the early Jabs. (and continues to be a consultant to Jabiru), was the Jab. 'factory builder' for a while, and has also fixed problems on the F16 ( I think it was) fin and large USAF jet freighter mainspars, I reckon he knows that of which he speaks.

 

 

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