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AzharFly

RA-Aus 19 Experimental to VH

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Hi

 

Quick question, can an RA 19 registered plane be converted over to VH?

 

This would be a plane using factory plans, approved engine such as Rotax 912 or Jabiru?

 

The reason why I ask is that there are a number of very capable 19 registered planes that I like but my requirement is to fly into controlled airspace etc.

 

 

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I think there was a member here trying to convert his RV 9 over to VH exp......

 

From memory, it was possible....

 

 

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both Raaus 19-xxxx and VH experimental may be flown in controlled airspace both must be equipped with approtiate avionics amd instrument inspections  , both need to be issued with CAR 262AP(5) flight over built up area approval

 

Mick

 

 

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Hi

 

Quick question, can an RA 19 registered plane be converted over to VH?

 

This would be a plane using factory plans, approved engine such as Rotax 912 or Jabiru?

 

The reason why I ask is that there are a number of very capable 19 registered planes that I like but my requirement is to fly into controlled airspace etc.

 

There is a lot of nonsense spoken about this. A flying instructor once told me that a 24-registered plane needed to have a certified engine to fly in controlled airspace. 

 

 

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both Raaus 19-xxxx and VH experimental may be flown in controlled airspace both must be equipped with approtiate avionics amd instrument inspections  , both need to be issued with CAR 262AP(5) flight over built up area approval

 

Mick

 

Agreed but as I understand it there is one additional proviso under the existing rules  - the RAA aircraft mist be flown by a current GA  licensed pilot  (RAA certified pilots can not fly in controlled airspace except for those very few exceptions where they have been trained in the said airspace and are using the training organisations aircraft)

 

 

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There’s lots of mixed up and conflated data there. 

 

WRT converting a 19 xxx. To VH. 

 

Yep it can be done. All it requires is a special C of A and then you register it. 

 

To get a C of A you need an authorised person. An AP.  

 

These are CASA authorised people to do your C of A. 

 

Most of these are members of, and do C of As through the SAAA. ( Sport Aircraft Assiciation of Australia) 

 

There are APs  who are independent if the SAAA as well. 

 

I can give you names of the SAAA ones but mostly they will only do them for SAAA members. Can’t help with non-SAAA  ones though. Only one I knew died recently. 

 

As for for entry into CTA. 

 

( not counting special situations - like training at a RAAus school in Class D or C with an exemption etc ) 

 

You can do it in an RAAus aircraft provided it has a transponder and radio AND the pilot has GA licence AND a current medical. 

 

The requirement for a certified engine is contentious. The most commonly quoted is no you don’t. Not enter CTA. BUT if your route takes you over a built up area inside CTA  then yes you do. 

 

If your start point is an RAAus plane and an RAAus pilot certificate and you want to fly in CTA. Your cheapest option is just to get a GA licence and appropriate radio and transponder. If you want a GA plane as well get the above AND then get conversion to VH as well. But maybe significant cost to get the AP. 

 

 

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............................ . 

 

The requirement for a certified engine is contentious. The most commonly quoted is no you don’t. Not enter CTA. BUT if your route takes you over a built up area inside CTA  then yes you do. 

 

I

 

I disagree with "certified" engine requirement - you will almost certainly get approval to fly over built up areas, if your non certified engine is a recognised aircraft engine (assuming air frame is approved) ie auto engine conversions and non certified  aircraft engine modifications are not likely to be approved.

 

Many of the light aircraft lane of entry's (through CTA) pass over built up areas. It is often almost impossible to select an alternative "safe" rout to get to your destination without using the lane of entry.

 

 

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It is possible to convert from 19 reg to VH and the easiest way would be with SAAA. I have considered it and talked to the relevant people in SAAA but am still holding off as the cost would be quite high and I probably won’t be flying long enough to recoup it and it would possibly reduce the number of potential buyers when I do decide to stop flying.

 

Another thing to consider is that the Plane you buy and register VH will require a LAME to work on it and do condition reports, unless by chance you had built a similar plane.

 

 

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I disagree with "certified" engine requirement - you will almost certainly get approval to fly over built up areas, if your non certified engine is a recognised aircraft engine (assuming air frame is approved) ie auto engine conversions and non certified  aircraft engine modifications are not likely to be approved.

 

Many of the light aircraft lane of entry's (through CTA) pass over built up areas. It is often almost impossible to select an alternative "safe" rout to get to your destination without using the lane of entry.

 

Mostly yes but Not exactly. 

 

Yes you are likely to get approval if it’s a well recognised aircraft engine, even if it’s not “certified” BUT  it’s up to the AP. 

 

Herein lies a problem for some. A conservative AP May be more restrictive  if the well known aviation engine is known to be at higher risk of failures. ( even if there is not CASA rules in place like for certain Jab engines.) it’s up to the AP. 

 

But if one AP ( the first) won’t approve it then hunting around for another may be unsuccessful because you could understand the seconds reluctance to counter the first, because if an accident happens there’s a lot more explaining to do as to why he countered the now obviously correct opinion of the first. 

 

There’s another thing too. When an AP takes on the qualification they have the option of not being approved to certify anybody to fly over built up areas. It’s a legal option some have taken. (Our Chapter AP had that restriction and it took a couple of people by surprise and caused some issues) 

 

As for lanes of entry they are not paths where a pilot can go without approval to fly over built up areas. They are not and never were meant to be for this purpose. They are navigational routes, aids to  conflict avoidance and separation, and sometimes are for sensitive area avoidance and noise abatement. 

 

If you have no approval to fly over the built up area you can’t use either the fact it’s a VFR route or ATC directions as a reason to fly there. 

 

 

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As is so often the case in our risk /responsibility averse society - Best not to ask the question.

 

 

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So who performs checks on aircraft flying into Class D aerodromes then? And what database would they be checking the registration (e.g. 19-xxxx) against to see if it is "allowed" into controlled airspace?

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So who performs checks on aircraft flying into Class D aerodromes then? And what database would they be checking the registration (e.g. 19-xxxx) against to see if it is "allowed" into controlled airspace?

 

 

Checks mostly happen after an incident, quit unusual to have a spot/preemptive check. Once again, its not the aircraft (assuming it is equipped with radio & transponder) so much as the pilot who must hold a current PPL

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I guess what I'm still trying to understand is whether the restriction for "no flight over built-up areas" apply to non-factory built RAA aircraft only? i.e. does this apply to 19-xxxx aircraft but not 24-xxxx aircraft. Well specifically if I wanted to purchase a 2nd hand RAA aircraft, but wanted to be able to fly into Class-D airspace/aerodrome without problems can I basically do that with a 24-xxxx registed, but not a 19-xxxx registered? (still haven't been specifically able to see this distinction in the regs...)

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I guess what I'm still trying to understand is whether the restriction for "no flight over built-up areas" apply to non-factory built RAA aircraft only? i.e. does this apply to 19-xxxx aircraft but not 24-xxxx aircraft. Well specifically if I wanted to purchase a 2nd hand RAA aircraft, but wanted to be able to fly into Class-D airspace/aerodrome without problems can I basically do that with a 24-xxxx registed, but not a 19-xxxx registered? (still haven't been specifically able to see this distinction in the regs...)

 

Have a look at CAO 95.55 - 7.3 .

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I guess what I'm still trying to understand is whether the restriction for "no flight over built-up areas" apply to non-factory built RAA aircraft only? i.e. does this apply to 19-xxxx aircraft but not 24-xxxx aircraft. Well specifically if I wanted to purchase a 2nd hand RAA aircraft, but wanted to be able to fly into Class-D airspace/aerodrome without problems can I basically do that with a 24-xxxx registed, but not a 19-xxxx registered? (still haven't been specifically able to see this distinction in the regs...)

 

Currently and for about 10 years my mate flies his 19-xxxx jabiru 230 ( built by a home builder) into and out of cairns international airport (class C ) CTR.

 

He has an RAAus licence and a PPL.

The aircraft is radio and transponder equipped and has a Jabiru engine.

He has no restrictions on flying over built up areas and there is a CASA office here at the airport and he has never been pulled up for doing it.

 

can only say - I rest my case.

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Currently and for about 10 years my mate flies his 19-xxxx jabiru 230 ( built by a home builder) into and out of cairns international airport (class C ) CTR.

 

He has an RAAus licence and a PPL.

The aircraft is radio and transponder equipped and has a Jabiru engine.

He has no restrictions on flying over built up areas and there is a CASA office here at the airport and he has never been pulled up for doing it.

 

can only say - I rest my case.

 

Thanks for your real world example Jaba - If you fly an aircraft that has your confidence that it will not conk out at an embarrassing/dangerous point in the flight, you have a current PPL, and it is appropriately equipped,no one is going to changeling your right to fly wherever.

 

With any bureaucracy one must know when to ask a question and when not (if you dont know the answer) - in short dont disturb the sleeping bureaucrat.

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Posted (edited)

Hi

 

Quick question, can an RA 19 registered plane be converted over to VH?

 

This would be a plane using factory plans, approved engine such as Rotax 912 or Jabiru?

 

The reason why I ask is that there are a number of very capable 19 registered planes that I like but my requirement is to fly into controlled airspace etc.

Yes you can, but there are several hoops to jump through, Jaba covered most of them nicely, but there's a couple gotchas, see below.

 

I think there was a member here trying to convert his RV 9 over to VH exp......

 

From memory, it was possible....

That was me, and eventually I gave up and went back to RAAus because I didn't have my MPC at the time and wasn't prepared to pay for a LAME to issue a MR, or a WCO to redo the W&B per the AP's requirement, even though it had been done by an RAAus L4, an approved CAsA delegate. The difficulty of getting in touch with either of the (at the time, only) two AP's in NSW didn't help either.

 

Now I have the MPC, when I can tee up a time I'll have another crack, but here's a few tips:

  • Make sure you de-register your aircraft with RAAus well before you attempt to register it with CAsA.
  • Where the CAsA registration form asks "Has the aircraft ever been on a foreign register?", the muppets in Cant-berra interpret this to mean "Any register other than ours, at any time since Noah built the ark?", not just "A register in another country"
  • You can register your plane VH at any time, but you can't fly it until you have a CoA from an AP
  • Unless you built it, or "a substantially similar" one, you will need a LAME to raise the MR, which can't happen will you have a CoA
  • The AP or LAME may want a new W&B done. If you haven't done the MPC & W&B course, you will need a CAsA-approved WCO to do this. Ask beforehand.
  • The AP may want to issue you a test area to complete your "SAAA-approved" Phase-I testing, even though you have successfully been flying RAAus for months/years. Ask beforehand, and discuss where this area will be.
  • The AP may want you to complete the SAAA "Risk-Radar" bollocks, even though you have successfully been flying RAAus for months/years. Ask beforehand and discuss.

Edited by Guest
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Seem's I'm too late to edit the previous post to include the link to the drama's I had initially, but you can find a bit writeup about it in the thread What's up with the SAAA?

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Posted (edited)

Someone in the know from SAAA (me) has reached out to KR to offer current state of play info and advice.

Edited by Guest

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I stopped being a member when they effectively doubled the fees for the "elderly enthusiasts". I put in a strong case to not do it but the response was pretty much "NO response". and a little off putting... Nev

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