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What happened to IMSAFE, before flight. Pressure itis, get there itis are killers

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We don't know at this stage whether it is a medical issue where the pilot managed to set the auto pilot just in time, or whether he set the auto pilot then fell asleep.

It does show the benefit of having an auto pilot vs not having one when you are flying solo.

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Big deal, used to happen all the time with Navajo night freighters running Sydney to Essendon - they'd keep on tracking straight after Eildon Weir instead of a slight right turn. ATC would eventually wake them up and sort it out.

So what - now trainee pilots will have to have a meal logbook and a sleep logbook? Pi.... off..........

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The report states he had a restless nights sleep, was recovering from a mild cold and didn't eat breakfast. That's the I, possibly the S, F and E missing from his IMSAFE. He was not fit to fly but did so anyway and was lucky to engage the autopilot just before he fell unconscious. A pretty poor effort, it could have ended in disaster.

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Clear fail on the human factors side of things. The pilot must be airworthy as well as the plane. What about the risk to others in the sky?. Basic autopilots only hold a height and heading./track. Nev

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Clear fail on the human factors side of things. The pilot must be airworthy as well as the plane. What about the risk to others in the sky?. Basic autopilots only hold a height and heading./track. Nev

Hi Nev In the marine game there are watch guard alarm devices that after a set period say 6, 8 or 14 minutes an indicator light then alarm beeps if not acknowledged it sounds an increasing alarm sound at certain on board locations to alert other crew that the helm person is or may not be alert. Is there such a system in aircraft generally?

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Hi Nev In the marine game there are watch guard alarm devices that after a set period say 6, 8 or 14 minutes an indicator light then alarm beeps if not acknowledged it sounds an increasing alarm sound at certain on board locations to alert other crew that the helm person is or may not be alert. Is there such a system in aircraft generally?

Not much point in alerting anyone else when there is no one else.

 

But if it alerted a snoozy pilot it probably would be worth it.

But it would need some form of override to avoid annoying the pilot in situations where the workload will be negatively impacted by alarms going off all the time - and you can bet what will happen. Alarm will be deactivated the time it is needed.

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Not much point in alerting anyone else when there is no one else.

 

But if it alerted a snoozy pilot it probably would be worth it.

But it would need some form of override to avoid annoying the pilot in situations where the workload will be negatively impacted by alarms going off all the time - and you can bet what will happen. Alarm will be deactivated the time it is needed.

For aircraft perhaps an audible sound in the headsets may wake the pilot.

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Trains have a dead man switch which stops the train unless it is regularly activated by the driver.

In an aircraft, in the confusion when the pilot woke up he could be out of control and spiralling downward before he could take action.

Also it's more difficult to identify a sleeping pilot on autopilot because the aircraft is flying normally.

What is coming in in the transport industry is a small camera facing the driver which picks up tell tale signatures of drowsiness and eye movements and gets a driver off the road before he goes to sleep.

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Posted (edited)

Hang on..any sort of alarm or detection device just treats the symptoms (post fact)....

Legs get ahead of the game and not put suspect pilots in an airplane first of all..?

 

There doesn't seem to be an extensive number of similar incidences, so let's just treat this as isolated, and educate pilots to self report and acknowledge their state of fatigue.

Edited by Downunder

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Hang on..any sort of alarm or detection device just treats the symptoms (post fact)....

Legs get ahead of the game and not put suspect pilots in an airplane first of all..?

Yes, and that's how the industry has done it since the beginning of flight, and I can't remember anyone else doing it.

There have certainly been cases in the US, and one in a corporate jet in Australia where military aircraft have been tasked to track aircraft where all occupants were unconscious due to oxygen failure and they were all fatal.

The million dollar question is whether the Port Augusta flight is the first of series where student pilots are either not being correctly trained to include attitude to the flight, or have an attitude that accidents happen to other people, or whether this is a one off incident we can all forget.

The cameras I was talking about previously are pre-fact, contacting the chain of responsiblity management and giving them vision to also communicate with and assess the driver.

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Posted (edited)

I think there's a need in cars and planes for a monitoring/warning device. There's also pressure on pilots to fly long duty periods. Always was always will be. You can even drop off when busy (believe it or not). Having altltude hold or V/speed on is a trap if an engine changes power.. You can stall. Nev

Edited by facthunter

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Most people think being constantly watched and monitored is fine........ as long as it's not them being watched and monitored.

I'm against it personally.

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Most people think being constantly watched and monitored is fine........ as long as it's not them being watched and monitored.

I'm against it personally.

It's just a matter of how it's managed and where it's applied.

The fatigue monitor which is coming in to the transport industry can read eye movements which are indicators of someone about to fall asleep.

It may be possible to come up with a low cost alternative that reports to the pilot only.

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I'm talking about what Turbo mentions Eye movements etc. I did say device. Wouldn't be many around who haven't nodded off briefly in a car. It's NOT safe.. The flying scene is where unexpected things happen to Planes and weather and you might have a longer day/night than you expected. Adrenalin will help to see you through a crisis but you must be awake for it to work.. Nev

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Posted (edited)
Trains have a dead man switch which stops the train unless it is regularly activated by the driver.
Point of order! There is a distinct difference between a "deadman" switch on a train, and the "Vigilance/Alerter" system, which is the button you have to push every 45 seconds or so. Suburban trains usually have a deadman system, either the power controller or a pedal that has to be held "just so", or the brakes will be applied, and in Sydney after Waterfall, they introduced the Vigilance as well, whereas locomotives typically have the Vigilance system only, that being the button you have to push.

 

That being said, the Vigilance system can lull you into a false sense of security - usually around 0700 struggling up the hill into the rising sun after signing on at 1000 the previous night following a crappy sleep. It beeps, and you reset it as part of an unconscious reaction without being fully alert. Newer vehicles usually have the Vigilance "task-linked" to other onboard systems, such that the act of blowing the horn, changing power settings or making a brake application resets the cycle with the logic being you're alert enough to be actively driving the train, so why bug you just now?

 

The eye-scanner technology has been trialed by rail operators before and found to be a dismal failure. Train driver's can appear to lose focus for relatively long periods, which the system picks up as fatigue or at-risk behavior, though when you are driving the train several miles in advance and know almost to the meter where each signal and speedboard are, you don't need to actively focus your eyes on the track immediately ahead - which is what these systems seem to be programmed to look for and flag an alert if it doesn't happen.

Edited by Guest

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