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Mriya

Aircraft down at Leigh Creek

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Don’t know how it works, might just as well be magic, but if I ever get into a sticky situation (unlikely because I am your archetypal wussy pilot!) this is what I want in my cockpit!

98F0AE8F-6159-42BB-865A-5E63E4EF246A.jpeg

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21 minutes ago, derekliston said:

Don’t know how it works, might just as well be magic, but if I ever get into a sticky situation (unlikely because I am your archetypal wussy pilot!) this is what I want in my cockpit!

98F0AE8F-6159-42BB-865A-5E63E4EF246A.jpeg

Can't help but think as good as that looks it might give some people a false sense of security. I really don't think that would be a great back up plan. 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Can't help but think as good as that looks it might give some people a false sense of security. I really don't think that would be a great back up plan.

 

Yes, when you read the number of aviation forum reports, where pilots have reported electronic screens simply going black, or producing major display faults, it gives one the realisation that electronic screens are far from 100% trustworthy, and it certainly is a wise move to ensure that you have adequate skills to be able to continue to fly safely, without 100% reliance on a screen display.

Edited by onetrack

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We are not allowed to fly in the dark no matter what instrumentation we have fitted.

100% pilot error on this one if it such, damn shame he took someone with him, worse still for the husband piloting the other plane losing his wife in this totally avoidable crash.

Yes the pilot never intended killing himself nor his passenger that day I know, but he did and we can’t take it back.

None of us are immune to this as we are all human and humans make grave mistakes at times.

Learn from it.

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I have been involved with so called Basic (Flare Pots) VFR night flying and plenty of legal and proper IFR.. I've also had instrument failures at critical times icing, crap on windows sudden unforecast weather changes at destinations, grasshoppers  ruining vis  and making the engine overheat. hydraulic failures   engine failures engine fires  Major fuel leaks etc  really wouldn't want to do it all again. I was lucky to get away with it the first time.

. Instruments ALONE   WITHOUT  training, recency  and a  safe procedure to use to guide you to the end of the runway and suitable lights won't do it and may lead you into thinking it WILL if you get stuck. Prevention is the key here. I CAN imagine the state of mind this person was in. Anxiety and panic  were no doubt there / Making a mayday call is not using the time left to best advantage but it may have been over by then anyhow. It's a dreadful tragic scenario and one consolation is they would not have felt anything as it would be over quickly. The die was cast however, well before the event. It's usually a combination of factors not one single one.

    This aircraft was probably fully serviceable and airworthy except for the time of the day . That's ALL that was wrong. . What ended up happening would probably be the same outcome for  all but a VERY few pilots in the same circumstances, but ironically, they would probably not get into that situation. I don't see a good panel as being the answer. To actually land on a runway you can't see  is an experience you should only have with  the proper assistance and equipment like an airport and plane equipped for autoland.. Nev 

 

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1 hour ago, Teckair said:

Can't help but think as good as that looks it might give some people a false sense of security. I really don't think that would be a great back up plan. 

Agree, an IFR pilot has already transitioned his inner ear to the instruments long before the bouncy weather and deteriorating conditions start, and just continues along.

An RA pilot is very unlikely to respect what an instrument panel is telling him when he inevitably gets the leans and does with the seat of his pants, thinking the instrument is wrong.

An EFIS is no different to an artificial Horizon; you can't fly in IFR just on that, you need Vertical Speed Indicator to know whether at this second you are climbing or diving, Air Speed indicator to conform it,  rpm etc.

Derek already said he has no intentions of getting into a situation where he might be tempted to tryt it, bit to me the simpler solution is to get out of a developing situation early, so as soon as Last Light of fuel exhaustion creep in as possibilities, amend the flight plan to go to an airfield which puts you back in all the good situations starfting with light, fuel, refuelling and accommodation, and have an uneventfull flight. 

BTW the flight plan I talk about is not the one which several people have said is not mandatory any more, it's the calculations and planning you need to do to complete a safe flight, which is pretty much the same, except Airservices no longer have to employ staff to process it.

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You are taught to absolutely TRUST your instruments and ignore the seat of the pants feel that will always mislead you. In a two person  crew situation you have duplicated flight instruments a PLUS a few  basic  for in an EMERGENCY (electrical failure) to fall back on. With a single non TSO'd set up one could not insist on  such a level of trust and  a basic back up of ASI plus  a rate turn instrument  with the usual slip ball and a sensitive altimeter becomes essential.  This is  the most basic panel you can fly on and you need a magnetic compass to  navigate somewhere. in a rough sense., Without a visual FIX or a ground radio station passage you are going by Ded reckoning. Flying the basic panel is a real skill and no one can do it in rough air for an extended period due to the level of concentration required depending on the level of turbulence. Add an A/H and the job is much simplified. Nev

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3 hours ago, onetrack said:

 

Yes, when you read the number of aviation forum reports, where pilots have reported electronic screens simply going black, or producing major display faults, it gives one the realisation that electronic screens are far from 100% trustworthy, and it certainly is a wise move to ensure that you have adequate skills to be able to continue to fly safely, without 100% reliance on a screen display.

For me, I want nothing to do with glass cockpits.....too much information, not clearly seen in a hurry. My training aircraft has steam gauges and artificial horizon and that was one of my original requirements when selecting a flying school.  Add in a BRS too. In looking for an aircraft I want the same and have a preference for the same aircraft, if available.  

I am conservative and a horrible memory from 35 years ago as a passenger in a Bonanza flying VFR and the pilot made some horrible decisions that could have ended in tragedy.  I was doing the navigating and asked we find a place to land, due to storm ahead, we ran out of choices so I gave him a course that I felt was a good decision, it was but he wanted get back on track South again, however he again chose to keep going so I said head for the coast, turn right about 3km out to sea and keep the water on the left and the sand on the right, cloudbase down to 600ft and we keep going, no radio calls until Maroochydore and the cloud has not changed, we land safely and got roasted for flying, plane grounded 3 days with weather.

i was never told the outcome of the VFR violation, but I felt one of my spare lives got used up that day.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack.

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I was only there a few weeks ago. I used leigh creek frequently when commuting a few years back. Not an easy strip with hills all around, even to the north there is a slight rise. At the start of June we left YLEC and had a 50knt headwind. We decided to put down at Renmark rather than continue on into the unknown. Final destination was Hamilton Victoria. I have 600 hrs and was flying with a commercial pilot with over 2000 hrs. We were doing calculations most of the way. Easier when you have a qualified navigator. It cost us two taxi fares a room at the hotel, two meals and about ten beers. 

It was a situation that we could have ended up in if we didn't make the decision to put down early. 

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There are situations where RAAus pilots could activate PAL lighting. Going into the setting sun you can find the aerodrome easier if you activate the lights. It is also a check to see if your radio is transmitting. You will see the lights come on and even if you can't you will get a message saying "location, lights on"

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I’ve attached a post that I wrote in 2015, relevant for instrument or night flying when not qualified or in a suitable a/c. Keep it simple & safe.

1C027A5F-14D3-409D-BEA5-BF36010A7DCE.png

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, jackc said:

For me, I want nothing to do with glass cockpits.....too much information, not clearly seen in a hurry. My training aircraft has steam gauges and artificial horizon and that was one of my original requirements when selecting a flying school.  Add in a BRS too. In looking for an aircraft I want the same and have a preference for the same aircraft, if available.  

I fully respect other's opinions here, but for me, the Dynon (and others, I just have Dynon) isn't just a glass cockpit. You're completely correct there is a terrific amount of data available, but it's also what isn't there that is a massive boost to safety in its' own right. Audio alerts, timers, and continuous monitoring of everything engine & electrical related. The Dynon will automatically announce, in your headset "Oil Pressure" or "Engine Monitor" if something goes out of limits. It will announce "Timer Expired" or "Approaching Waypoint", or "Flight Plan Updated" if you change something on OzRunways and then WiFi it to the EFIS. It will alert you to change fuel tanks based on a timer you set, or on reaching a specific fuel quantity or consumption. You can have all the above with the traditional 6-pack presentation on the Dynon screen if you so choose, but for me, the EFIS presentation with SynVis over the top is more natural. Some EFIS manufacturers ( GRT, for sure & MGL I think) even allow you to connect a FLIR camera and overlay the EFIS symbology on the camera image, as you would get in an F15!

 

Using this accident and my Dynon installation as an example, if you couldn't get the lights on, you can open the Leigh Creek GNSS chart on the iPad, select the waypoints and WiFi the plan to the Dynon and, with autopilot engaged, all you have to do is monitor the vertical component, which you can do with the Vertical Speed hold or Airspeed hold modes on the autopilot. The Dynon will fly the approach, and if you continue beyond the minima (emergency afterall) you at least stand a good chance of arriving somewhat intact, within the airfield boundary...A 'standard' 6 pack doesn't give you this level of automation, or safety, and I would never go back to such a layout in any airplane I owned.

Edited by KRviator
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5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Agree, an IFR pilot has already transitioned his inner ear to the instruments long before the bouncy weather and deteriorating conditions start, and just continues along.

An RA pilot is very unlikely to respect what an instrument panel is telling him when he inevitably gets the leans and does with the seat of his pants, thinking the instrument is wrong.

An EFIS is no different to an artificial Horizon; you can't fly in IFR just on that, you need Vertical Speed Indicator to know whether at this second you are climbing or diving, Air Speed indicator to conform it,  rpm etc.

Derek already said he has no intentions of getting into a situation where he might be tempted to tryt it, bit to me the simpler solution is to get out of a developing situation early, so as soon as Last Light of fuel exhaustion creep in as possibilities, amend the flight plan to go to an airfield which puts you back in all the good situations starfting with light, fuel, refuelling and accommodation, and have an uneventfull flight. 

BTW the flight plan I talk about is not the one which several people have said is not mandatory any more, it's the calculations and planning you need to do to complete a safe flight, which is pretty much the same, except Airservices no longer have to employ staff to process it.

Absolutely mate, I would never advise anyone to rely on this panel, for my type of flying it is very much overkill. I only fly for fun, say that again I ONLY FLY FOR FUN, I like blue skies, light winds and at about 60kts cruise, not particularly long distance trips. I have been flying off and on since 1968, but due to all sorts of higher priorities over the years I am a low hours pilot, therefore I remain well aware of my personal limits. There is nothing that I need to do that can’t wait for another day, week or even month!

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 Unless you work at flying for a living where you go if it's legal( and some go when it's not) You don't HAVE to fly unless you've set yourself a deadline for some invented reason. Like can't afford the extra days accommodation. Have  a lot to do at home etc. This is covered in Human factors. . Flying is a lot about making the right (organizational) decisions not super flying skills, magic or luck. Cross country flying is great, and these little planes today are up to it IF you plan well and keep a plan "B".  but it's a big place, Australia and outside of the cockpit is the real world, ready to let you know of it's presence at any moment.  Nev

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KRviator said:

 

Using this accident and my Dynon installation as an example, if you couldn't get the lights on, you can open the Leigh Creek GNSS chart on the iPad, select the waypoints and WiFi the plan to the Dynon and, with autopilot engaged, all you have to do is monitor the vertical component, which you can do with the Vertical Speed hold or Airspeed hold modes on the autopilot. The Dynon will fly the approach, and if you continue beyond the minima (emergency afterall) you at least stand a good chance of arriving somewhat intact, within the airfield boundary...A 'standard' 6 pack doesn't give you this level of automation, or safety, and I would never go back to such a layout in any airplane I owned.

That seems like a pretty high workload for a single pilot that hasn't practised the procedure at night, if a thousand pilots like you did this would the outcome be acceptable? 

 

Maybe the six pack would not lead us into temptation, the beer at William Creek is great and they have accommodation. 

Edited by Thruster88
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William Creek offers the minimum of everything, food, bedding, camping. A monopoly that has no need to improve its offering. A disappointing destination.

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You are reading it wrong. The owner puts everything into it. it's REMOTE and most has to be brought in. and it's way off the beaten track, not a roadhouse on the Main Highway. Nev

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9 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

William Creek offers the minimum of everything, food, bedding, camping. A monopoly that has no need to improve its offering. A disappointing destination.

Aviation in Australia would be so much poorer without it mate!

I hope he keeps it exactly as it is.

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Ok, I concede that we would be much worse off without William Creek as it is. It’s just that I spent too much of my life in crappy mine dongas!

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12 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

That seems like a pretty high workload for a single pilot that hasn't practised the procedure at night, if a thousand pilots like you did this would the outcome be acceptable? 

 

Maybe the six pack would not lead us into temptation, the beer at William Creek is great and they have accommodation. 

FWIW, I have tried it before to prove the concept, at a remote airfield and in mid-morning CAVU conditions, and the highest workload - for me anyway - was the mental juggling to try to hit the next altitude constraint without having to level off. It is surprisingly easy to do and almost painless when you know the systems involved. If you set your altitude to 100' below airfield elevation, and have the autopilot set up in IAS-hold, you control descent rate with power, so only have one control to manage. You can set up a VS-based descent, but then are watching speed as well and if you change selected VS, you need to make a corresponding change in power.

 

Assuming you re already inbound to Leigh Creek with the autopilot in GPS Nav, it takes 8 presses on the Ipad screen and about 20 seconds, most of which is time waiting for the 8-year-old iPad2 to respond to the screen presses. It'd likely be much faster with a modern iPad.

  • Rubber band the route to an IAP waypoint
  • Confirm the waypoint (OzRunways will then ask you if you want to load the entire approach into the current plan)
  • Confirm the "Add RNAV Waypoints to plan"
  • Rubber band the route from the FAF to the ARP (As the approach/OzRunways sequences you to the MAP from the FAF, not FAF-ARP-MAP)
  • Send to SkyView (SkyView will announce "Flight Plan Updated" in your headset as confirmation, and update the waypoints, ETA's and ETE's on the SkyView map screen)
  • Tap near the destination
  • Select the destination airport
  • Select the appropriate RNAV Approach chart.

Once you have done that, you are free of changes to your horizontal flight path so long as you keep the AP in GPS mode. The iPad will show a Georeferenced approach chart so you can cross-check your position and be assured the Dynon is flying it accurately. All that is left is to descend appropriately, and depending how you have your Dynon set up, you will get ETA/ETE's on your screen, so you can do the mental maths for required descent rate for that segment. The distance between RNAV waypoints seems to be a fairly standard 5nm, so for a 60KIAS approach speed (roughly what I use in the RV), you have ~5 minutes each leg to confirm your position, altitude and descent rate.

 

Now the important bit...I am not condoning this as a standard 'everyday' practice. That needs to be understood from the outset. However, for those aircraft equipped with Dynon/G3X or other EFIS systems, particularly those that have WiFi flight plan functionality, If everything has gone pear-shaped, you are stuck on top of cloud or airborne after last light,  this provides a means to fly a published approach under autopilot control that could well save your life, particularly if the GNSS is closely aligned with the runway.

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We seem to be advising plots what to do when they get into strife, instead of advising them how to keep out of strife. All this talk of using the Dynon or G3X to fly an approach is not going to help someone who has never done it before. It takes practice to become competent at that sort of thing.

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20 minutes ago, KRviator said:

FWIW, I have tried it before to prove the concept, at a remote airfield and in mid-morning CAVU conditions, and the highest workload - for me anyway - was the mental juggling to try to hit the next altitude constraint without having to level off. It is surprisingly easy to do and almost painless when you know the systems involved. If you set your altitude to 100' below airfield elevation, and have the autopilot set up in IAS-hold, you control descent rate with power, so only have one control to manage. You can set up a VS-based descent, but then are watching speed as well and if you change selected VS, you need to make a corresponding change in power.

 

Assuming you re already inbound to Leigh Creek with the autopilot in GPS Nav, it takes 8 presses on the Ipad screen and about 20 seconds, most of which is time waiting for the 8-year-old iPad2 to respond to the screen presses. It'd likely be much faster with a modern iPad.

  • Rubber band the route to an IAP waypoint
  • Confirm the waypoint (OzRunways will then ask you if you want to load the entire approach into the current plan)
  • Confirm the "Add RNAV Waypoints to plan"
  • Rubber band the route from the FAF to the ARP (As the approach/OzRunways sequences you to the MAP from the FAF, not FAF-ARP-MAP)
  • Send to SkyView (SkyView will announce "Flight Plan Updated" in your headset as confirmation, and update the waypoints, ETA's and ETE's on the SkyView map screen)
  • Tap near the destination
  • Select the destination airport
  • Select the appropriate RNAV Approach chart.

Once you have done that, you are free of changes to your horizontal flight path so long as you keep the AP in GPS mode. The iPad will show a Georeferenced approach chart so you can cross-check your position and be assured the Dynon is flying it accurately. All that is left is to descend appropriately, and depending how you have your Dynon set up, you will get ETA/ETE's on your screen, so you can do the mental maths for required descent rate for that segment. The distance between RNAV waypoints seems to be a fairly standard 5nm, so for a 60KIAS approach speed (roughly what I use in the RV), you have ~5 minutes each leg to confirm your position, altitude and descent rate.

 

Now the important bit...I am not condoning this as a standard 'everyday' practice. That needs to be understood from the outset. However, for those aircraft equipped with Dynon/G3X or other EFIS systems, particularly those that have WiFi flight plan functionality, If everything has gone pear-shaped, you are stuck on top of cloud or airborne after last light,  this provides a means to fly a published approach under autopilot control that could well save your life, particularly if the GNSS is closely aligned with the runway.

... comms?  The RPT conducting the same approach might like to know. 

Is it legal without ADSB?

 

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Completely agree Yenn✔️ 

 

Prevention is always better than cure. But we practice forced landings, we practice PSL's, stalls and steep turns. If you are equipped with an EFIS and autopilot it doesn't take much to become confident in the buttonology enough that you can use such a method to keep you upright and hopefully get you down in one piece. 

 

If by having this discussion, we've prompted other EFIS owners to think "Gee, I didn't know it could do that, I might go out and try it to see if that KR bloke is right" then the conversation has served its' purpose. Hopefully no one will ever need to use it, but I'd rather someone know they could if they have to. It might have saved 2 lives last week, it might not, but it can save someone going forward.

 

Insofar as comms, Ironpot, if you are using this to get down in one piece, you are yourself already in an emergency and hopefully the RPT will sod off to the hold somewhere and monitor your progress. You don't need ADS-B for it, that simply tells people where you are. You don't even need a transponder, just appropriate EFIS, autopilot and OzRunways / Avplan (I think AvPlan works), which a lot of us seem to have. 

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You’ve misunderstood my point. You are advising the 18yr olds on here to get hold of IFR approach plates and exercise full blown approaches to add to everything else they’re learning.  Presumably you are suggesting exercising with an instructor. What I was highlighting  was that at no point and in any context ,was he advising traffic of intentions.  I was simply pointing that out. 

However,  the more I think about this the more I think it is ill advised unless in an absolute emergency and then after undertaking the course - it’s called a PIFR.

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If you hold a PIFR, this discussion is moot. 🤨

 

As I said above, your flightpath is dictated by a non-approved WAAS GPS antenna, through an uncertified EFIS to an autopilot that you may well have installed yourself. A PIFR pilot wouldn't be concerned with flight beyond last light, he would have held an alternate in the event they couldn't get the lights on at Leigh Creek, he would have diverted when his fuel state dictated he wouldn't reach his alternate with his fixed reserve intact, he wouldn't have been doing NVFR in an RAAus aircraft and he probably wouldn't have killed himself and his passenger...

 

The intent of posting the above narrative is to highlight if you have AB & C installed, which a lot of people seem to going by posts here and in various magazines, in an emergency you can utilise what you have to fly an approach that gives you a somewhat decent chance of survival, vs tooling around without a plan hoping things will work out and then spearing in when they don't. Yes, NVFR or IFR flying needs training and the appropriate rating, no argument there from me - never will be either - but we continually hear of VFR pilots getting into IMC, or in this case, flying beyond last light and coming unstuck. The above is a tool that may help them survive their foolishness and more importantly, not kill their innocent passenger...

 

People are free to consider it another tool at their disposal if everything's gone to hell, they are free to think I'm stark raving mad for even suggesting doing something like that - I don't really give a rats. But I'm not going to keep something that may save a life to myself just because someone doesn't like the idea. 

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