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16 minutes ago, spenaroo said:

No, just to fly the picture.

The instruments are there to be glanced at, just a very quick look to confirm.

 

If you are flying the picture outside (where the nose is relative to the horizon, where the ground sits on the windscreen during a banked turn) the instruments will reflect that.

That's basically one of the elements mentioned above, but it can be described in one word.

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4 minutes ago, Manwell said:

Stalling stick position isn't what I had in mind, and it's much simpler than that equation, Thruster.   In practical terms, which two elements must be controlled in order to fly any aircraft?

Manwell you REALLY must think your questions through.  You appear to be going back to the simple 2 equations for balanced flight (lift = mass plus thrust = drag) and thinking we will link that so something about flying by visual reference to the outside.  

 

Thats not HOW we fly as your question asked. 

And if it was the simple equations plus visual reference you were thinking of then it’s not limited to fixed wing aircraft.  And if it’s got anything to do with using ailerons or any particular flight control it’s not applicable to all fixed wing aircraft. Eg fixed wing two axis aircraft can have no ailerons and some fixed wing ultralights use combined weight shift and control surfaces.

 

may I suggest to post your intended answer here and start again on something that’s a lot clearer

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I reckon he means the old Power+Attitude=Performance.  More a formulation than a formula.

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3 minutes ago, Garfly said:

I reckon he means the old Power+Attitude=Performance.  More a formulation than a formula.

I was trying to avoid that one simply because it’s not particularly applicable to gliders which are three axis fixed wing aircraft. 

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Posted (edited)

Damn...

The talk of equations triggered a memory of one in my first lesson briefing. It was something simple but I Can't seem to find the notes at the moment, and what I'm looking for isn't in the text books.

 

I think at the moment its the classic case of overcomplicating things. Trying to chase the best or most correct answer. Instead of the simplest.

Edited by spenaroo
Because I can...

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1 hour ago, Manwell said:

Stalling stick position isn't what I had in mind, and it's much simpler than that equation, Thruster.   In practical terms, which two elements must be controlled in order to fly any aircraft?

Flying is all about airspeed airspeed ?

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1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

Power and attitude.

 

Hallelujah!  Now what must you be capable of doing "to fly" using nothing more complex than Power + Attitude?  One word. 

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12 minutes ago, Manwell said:

Hallelujah!  Now what must you be capable of doing "to fly" using nothing more complex than Power + Attitude?  One word. 

Control

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Well done kasper! And there you have it in a nutshell.  CONTROL POWER + ATTITUDE.  Perfect, and it still applies to gliders because power is replaced with vertical air speed and weight.  But we're not finished just yet.  Now, define each term.  The objective is to KNOW How to Fly, rather than drive a machine around the sky. 

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If you think only control of power and attitude is required to fly I’m voting to be on the ground watching you do any form of crosswind takeoff and landing ... my maddest student was never so focussed ... and he was a nuclear scientist who over thought EVERY action and demanded I explain everything in mathematical proof.  

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If you did watch when I taught crosswind landings in a Decathlon without touching down both wheels, you'd know it's still control of power + attitude kasper.  That's all power + attitude, just the performance is different.

 

For the record, I had one of those academics too.  We flew all the way from BK to PF and return, and I couldn't get him to hold accurate S&L.  Overthinking and looking at the detail instead of the big picture as one.

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 Angle of attack of the wing to the relative airflow is the clue to being safe.. Basic. for recovery from unusual attitudes. You can be stalled with the nose below the horizon. and the airspeed well above Vs.

   .  INITIALLY being able to "hold " an attitude by reference to the horizon is essential stuff. as you will get nowhere until you can do that..  Nev

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11 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 Angle of attack of the wing to the relative airflow is the clue to being safe.. Basic. for recovery from unusual attitudes. You can be stalled with the nose below the horizon. and the airspeed well above Vs.

   .  INITIALLY being able to "hold " an attitude by reference to the horizon is essential stuff. as you will get nowhere until you can do that..  Nev

Not really facthunter.  There is no AoA indicator in most aircraft, and if you relied on them in B737Max's lately you wouldn't be safe.  There are lots of clumsier methods intended to "keep us safe", but fortunately, we do have a number of other neglected subtle sensory clues available to us that are ultimately superior to instruments, except in IMC, of course.  However, being able to "hold" an attitude is truly essential stuff.  The emphasis is on "hold", or you could substitute Control to better define the concept.  "Hold" implies keeping something still, but Control implies making the attitude do what you want, which often requires subtle movements or pressures to "hold" an attitude.

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Facthunter made no reference, direct or implied, to AoA indicators. And, by the way, grandma knows a thing or two about sucking eggs.

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43 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Facthunter made no reference, direct or implied, to AoA indicators. And, by the way, grandma knows a thing or two about sucking eggs.

Okay Garfly, so exactly what does "AoA of the wing to the RAF is the clue to being safe" imply?  If it implies that pilots need to know it, or even have a clue about it, how is that achieved? 

 

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Nev was reminding us that pilots should know that airspeed alone is no guarantee of stall avoidance.

You don't need an AoA to tell you that; just timely reminders.

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Posted (edited)

 What flying  manual  worth it's salt, doesn't remind us that a stall is at an angle to the airflow, rather than JUST a speed?.. Pre stall buffet is one way and the required stall warning horn/ stick shaker  on GA types which does depend on a vane or porting that relates to AoA.  Nev

Edited by facthunter

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2 hours ago, Manwell said:

Not really facthunter.  There is no AoA indicator in most aircraft, and if you relied on them in B737Max's lately you wouldn't be safe.  There are lots of clumsier methods intended to "keep us safe", but fortunately, we do have a number of other neglected subtle sensory clues available to us that are ultimately superior to instruments, except in IMC, of course.  However, being able to "hold" an attitude is truly essential stuff.  The emphasis is on "hold", or you could substitute Control to better define the concept.  "Hold" implies keeping something still, but Control implies making the attitude do what you want, which often requires subtle movements or pressures to "hold" an attitude.

The Angle of Attack and an Angle of Attack indicator are two different things.

You can control the relative airflow by manipulating the controls according to you own senses or you could rely on an AoA indicator to guide you if you have one.

 

Go straight to about 1min.....you may appreciate his sentiments

 

 

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54 minutes ago, M61A1 said:

Go straight to about 1min.....you may appreciate his sentiments

 

 

....and she's thinking "What would old granpa know!"

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13 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

....and she's thinking "What would old granpa know!"

If I’m not mistaken, that’s his current wife, Victoria. 

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Thanks M61.  "If you don't know, you shouldn't be flying."  What Chuck's saying is not that you should know the AoA precisely, just intuitively, with information supplied through all the senses.  But how is this intuition achieved?   Only relevant comments please. 

 

If we'd all been taught by Chuck, EK Gann, or any of the other immortals like Bob Hoover, we'd all know how to fly.   Unfortunately, we haven't had that luxury, which is why we're "sucking eggs..... "   

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

....and she's thinking "What would old granpa know!"

And she might even have a point:

"The advantage using AOA over stall speed is that the stall AOA is constant while the stall speed depends upon weight. Greater weights => lower stall speeds. This difference will be important when there are large differences in A/C weights. If your F-18 has 4x2000lb bombs the stall speed is much different depending upon whether those bombs are dropped or not."

 

Source:

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/26005/why-is-angle-of-attack-information-not-displayed-in-the-cockpit

Edited by Garfly
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46 minutes ago, M61A1 said:

If I’m not mistaken, that’s his current wife, Victoria. 

oops.....

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While that's obviously true, it's far too complex for our purposes Garfly.  We're just dumb pilots who need to know when an aircraft is about to stall, and how to prevent that unless that's our choice.  e.g. landing, stall and spin training.  The first thing we need to know is how to control power and attitude.

 

I asked the question above, "...exactly what does "AoA of the wing to the RAF is the clue to being safe" imply?  If it implies that pilots need to know it, or even have a clue about it, how is that achieved?"  So far, facthunter's comment about pre-stall buffet is on the right track that leads to thinking along the same lines as Chuck, Bob, and Ernest.

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