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BirdDog

Ignoring the circuit

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2 hours ago, facthunter said:

 It would actually be more dangerous to have them doing a full circuit or even a partial one. (More time to tangle). The main trouble is with them taking a downwind when other's don't or can't safely do one.  I did put a big PROVIDED on my last comment. Having non radio planes mixing with RPT is pretty ridiculous  When we had no radio procedures Lights at the tower, everyone knew all about them.. Nev

RPT will only be flying in to Cert aerodromes where carriage of radio is mandatory. It’s the twins arriving straight in for various reasons that need to be considered...speed, vortices, complex single pilot operation, etc

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6 hours ago, facthunter said:

 It would actually be more dangerous to have them doing a full circuit or even a partial one. (More time to tangle). The main trouble is with them taking a downwind when other's don't or can't safely do one.  I did put a big PROVIDED on my last comment. Having non radio planes mixing with RPT is pretty ridiculous  When we had no radio procedures Lights at the tower, everyone knew all about them.. Nev

According to my understanding of circuit rules, slow, as in 50kt traffic should be at 500ft AGL, faster C172 ish aeroplanes and the likes of my CH701 at 1000ft AGL and RPT at 1500ft AGL. Logically then, if we all use the same picture of the airfield as in angle to the runway on downwind and turning base, then each should be higher and further from the airstrip. Each should be able to observe to the left and 500ft down any other circuit traffic and work out relative circuit positions. Given also that all traffic should be at least on listening watch there Shouldn’t be any problems!!! (But then again, pigs might fly!)

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3 minutes ago, derekliston said:

According to my understanding of circuit rules, slow, as in 50kt traffic should be at 500ft AGL, faster C172 ish aeroplanes and the likes of my CH701 at 1000ft AGL and RPT at 1500ft AGL. Logically then, if we all use the same picture of the airfield as in angle to the runway on downwind and turning base, then each should be higher and further from the airstrip.

My Pitts will be very much closer to the runway than most types. At 150+ I might choose to be one downwind at 1500 ft and be closer than the average 172. I turn base abeam the piano keys.

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19 minutes ago, djpacro said:

My Pitts will be very much closer to the runway than most types. At 150+ I might choose to be one downwind at 1500 ft and be closer than the average 172. I turn base abeam the piano keys.

Yup, like I said ‘pigs might fly’

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45 minutes ago, derekliston said:

According to my understanding of circuit rules, slow, as in 50kt traffic should be at 500ft AGL, faster C172 ish aeroplanes and the likes of my CH701 at 1000ft AGL and RPT at 1500ft AGL. Logically then, if we all use the same picture of the airfield as in angle to the runway on downwind and turning base, then each should be higher and further from the airstrip. Each should be able to observe to the left and 500ft down any other circuit traffic and work out relative circuit positions. Given also that all traffic should be at least on listening watch there Shouldn’t be any problems!!! (But then again, pigs might fly!)

That's correct, so you can imagine the concertina effect of three of them on straight in final with a Drifter in front, C172 behind him and a Dash 8 behincd the C172.

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1 hour ago, djpacro said:

My Pitts will be very much closer to the runway than most types. At 150+ I might choose to be one downwind at 1500 ft and be closer than the average 172. I turn base abeam the piano keys.

I do my circuit very close in at 1000’ downwind at 100 knots. But I’m down to 50 knots or less just before starting a curved base so wash off half my speed. Vfe is 56 knots and Vs with the barn door open is 26 so I generally warn aircraft behind me if it’s likely to impact them.

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True, but the general idea surely then is to extend downwind if necessary or otherwise if in communication agree for say the Dash 8 to overtake and land ahead of either the Drifter or the C172. At least if they can see and avoid it is surely safer than say the Drifter on final and the Dash 8 on a straight in final and perhaps not even seeing the Drifter.

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8 hours ago, facthunter said:

 It would actually be more dangerous to have them doing a full circuit or even a partial one. (More time to tangle). The main trouble is with them taking a downwind when other's don't or can't safely do one.  I did put a big PROVIDED on my last comment. Having non radio planes mixing with RPT is pretty ridiculous  When we had no radio procedures Lights at the tower, everyone knew all about them.. Nev

As someone else said, RPT should be doing a 1500 ft circuit and that should keep them out of the way, and everyone should have a radio at such a field. 

 

On the other hand, I do worry that someone (I) might “overfly” a field at 1500 when the field is big enough for planes that circuit at 1500. 

 

I don’t see how a RPT and a small aircraft will tangle at an airport. Their circuits are in different places... except on final where all the other manoeuvring will decrease the risk of a collision. 

 

———-

I only just found out that final is where 80% of collisions in the circuit occur. Seems that having  a highwing with transparent doors will help: I will be able to see to the right during gentle left turns. 

 

Also, my plane descends at about 450 ft/min at 60kts, about a 9 degreed angle of descent. I don’t think anyone will be descending on top of me on final. I will need to be looking around more, not just looking at the airspeed and the piano keys. 

 

Also, I just found out that many collisions occur when a slow plane (me) is being overtaken. I need to look behind myself on downwind, particularly to the right (left circuit)

————-

Sorry about the irritated comment. I take that back. 

Edited by APenNameAndThatA
Wrong word.

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38 minutes ago, derekliston said:

True, but the general idea surely then is to extend downwind if necessary or otherwise if in communication agree for say the Dash 8 to overtake and land ahead of either the Drifter or the C172. At least if they can see and avoid it is surely safer than say the Drifter on final and the Dash 8 on a straight in final and perhaps not even seeing the Drifter.

I’d be very nervous landing in sequence behind a Dash 8 and would prefer to orbit out of the way for a bit until it had taxied in.

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 The CASA illustration of the various circuits doesn't show the final for the RPT at 3 degress . Its shows it steeper than the lower level planes which are traditionally power off approaches and at a steeper approach angle than normal  RPT use. Totally unlikely  to happen in real life as there is a max sink rate to observe at low levels for RPT. There have been some quite awful interactions between Light aircraft and feeder types, often with confusion on radio. As I've said repeatedly, most RPT cockpits don't have great vision . They often land with a downwind component to save taxi and manoeuvering time and take off in a direction close to  that of their departure track or what gives the shorter taxi time. This to me is a risk that should be sorted out with operators where it's happening (if it is). Nev

Edited by facthunter

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 Orbiting anywhere in the circuit is scary . It's usually done only on ATC instruction where they take responsibility for separation, on descent or perhaps extended downwind. I can't recall anytime doing it, on my own initiative in a circuit area. Where RPT are using an aerodrome don't you have to join the circuit/overfly at 500' above any likely traffic..?  Nev

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1 hour ago, kaz3g said:

...... down to 50 knots or less just before starting a curved base .... so I generally warn aircraft behind me if it’s likely to impact them.

Thanks, my Pitts comes down very steeply, 90 kts over the fence.

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11 minutes ago, djpacro said:

Thanks, my Pitts comes down very steeply, 90 kts over the fence.

Yes...it’s a high-powered brick whereas mine is more like a feather with a rubber band.

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50 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 Orbiting anywhere in the circuit is scary . It's usually done only on ATC instruction where they take responsibility for separation, on descent or perhaps extended downwind. I can't recall anytime doing it, on my own initiative in a circuit area. Where RPT are using an aerodrome don't you have to join the circuit/overfly at 500' above any likely traffic..?  Nev

I agree Nev...that’s why I orbit “out of the way”.

 

a few years ago I was coming into Broken Hill and gave a 10 mile call. About 5 minutes later RFDS Kingair called straight in.

 

I gave my current position and told the RFDS pilot I’d dag around in an orbit to the south and let him land ahead of me.

 

His response was “It’s alright Kaz, you go first”.

 

It was Michael Tregear who I knew as a struggling CPL student at Coldstream where he lived in a little caravan with his dog while he worked a day job as a fitter and got hours up flying a meat bomber.

 

Michael proudly gave a guided tour of their hangars and offices, and then drove me into town in a brand new Celica sports.

 

Wow!

Edited by kaz3g
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One thing that can make a difference for RPT and other TCAS equipped  aircraft is to always squawk  ALT when airborne if you have a transponder. 

Edited by Thruster88
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The one thing we cannot control is that plane coming in flatter than us and faster. If I am in the circuit with a Dash 8 he will be overtaking me from below, as would a Mooney. I am not happy with that scenario as I know the faster planes pilots should be able to see me, but they could be fixated on the touch down point and not looking above or even at the same level. Radio is a great help here and most of the times would be in a radio environment.

This stems from an experience I had at Moorabbin  many years ago when a low wing plane came out from beneath my Victa on the approach. He called up to ask if I was for runway left, which should have been obvious as I was aligned with it.

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I was instructed not to loop in the circuit, but rather climb back up over the airfield to the dead side and rejoin.  Unless you can simply extend downwind or the like, but if it's a big beast with wake turbulence where I need more time, going up and over seems a better option.

 

This came in to play when I was on downwind and a big bird called for a straight in approach.  (Rex or Jetstar, can't remember).  I simply powered up and climbed up over the AD above CCT height and back over to the dead side.  Then, just wind down to CCT height and join again!  Was awesome view of the bird landing, got some more time on the clock, and landed happy!  

Again, some might say it's overkill, but when I sit in my cockpit, guess who is the PiC.  ?

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No it's not . You are doing alright in working through this. If there's doubt do your best to make it no doubt, Don't just sit there and wait for the noise of an impact and make a sigh of relief when it didn't happen.. Nev

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19 hours ago, derekliston said:

True, but the general idea surely then is to extend downwind if necessary or otherwise if in communication agree for say the Dash 8 to overtake and land ahead of either the Drifter or the C172. At least if they can see and avoid it is surely safer than say the Drifter on final and the Dash 8 on a straight in final and perhaps not even seeing the Drifter.

In my limited experience the Dash 8 will usually call for a straight in approach 25-30 NM out along with their ETA, (and make several calls on the way in)  so anyone with the ability to put numbers in ascending or descending order can figure out whether they will be clear of conflict or not and take an appropriate course of action.

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3 hours ago, BirdDog said:

I was instructed not to loop in the circuit ....  but if .... I need more time, going up and over seems a better option.

Indeed, I rarely do a loop in the circuit and also rarely go up and over into an Immelmann turn. Rolls are very quick so go unnoticed.:smile:

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Let me parade my ignorance and ask a basic question.  Several posts earlier concerned the direction of circuits, with some pilots apparently flying it the wrong way.

 

In UK, the circuit direction is indicated by a Tee board. This is usually situated near the windsock, and is a large board lying flat with a big white letter T on it. This is oriented such that the ('upright') leg of the Tee aligns with the runway in use. Approach & takeoff is along the upright towards the crossbar.

 

In this way, when the recommended overhead join is made, joining pilots can see the wind direction, runway in use, & circuit direction from overhead before joining the circuit.

 

This seems like a fundamental to me, at least for manned airfields. It at least allows non-radio aircraft, or those who haven't planned thoroughly, to be aware of the circuit direction.

 

Has this system not been used in Aus, or tried & discarded? 

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Circuits in Oz are left hand unless otherwise published in ERSA. I have not heard of the Tee board. Am usually flat out finding the wind sock and ascertaining its direction. I would probably have to orbit twice to read a Tee board!

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Yeah - I have never seen a T Board either, and yes, a wind sock can be hard to see.

 

I was landing at rural field a while back and when I flew over the windsock, it was tangled around the pole!  I had to rely on a METAR from a fair way away, and hope it was close.  Thankfully it was.  ?

 

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2 hours ago, djpacro said:

Indeed, I rarely do a loop in the circuit and also rarely go up and over into an Immelmann turn. Rolls are very quick so go unnoticed.:smile:

I just wish.....sigh

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