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Fatal Accident Rate of Angel Flights Seven Times Higher than Other Private Flights

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10 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

Looks like more people will be making long road trips, with lots of night driving. 

 

Not necessarily, it can be managed with some restructuring (combination of financial/operations)

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Hope you're right, Turbs.

Incidentally, a little isolated town where I worked for a few years passed the hat to buy a community GA aircraft, presumably for AF and similar purposes. Hope their initiative isn't stymied by the bureaucrats.

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1 minute ago, Old Koreelah said:

Hope you're right, Turbs.

Incidentally, a little isolated town where I worked for a few years passed the hat to buy a community GA aircraft, presumably for AF and similar purposes. Hope their initiative isn't stymied by the bureaucrats.

I suspect the issues the NDIS are facing, with an uptake requiring a budget bigger than the moon landings will eventually solve the problems. There is an economic base forming which is likely to lead to more decentralised medical coverage.

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Families are decimated by road accidents every day of the week. So a few die in air crashes.....who cares? 

 

If if we let CASA and it’s ATSB lapdog regulate road transport, we’d all be driving at 30 kph daylight hours only, wearing crash helmets, 4 point harnesses and roll bars. We would also have to stop when it was wet.

 

Everything in life carries risk. Get used to it.

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21 minutes ago, walrus said:

Families are decimated by road accidents every day of the week. So a few die in air crashes.....who cares? 

 

If if we let CASA and it’s ATSB lapdog regulate road transport, we’d all be driving at 30 kph daylight hours only, wearing crash helmets, 4 point harnesses and roll bars. We would also have to stop when it was wet.

 

Everything in life carries risk. Get used to it.

It’s already done, called the National Heavy Vehicle Regulator; about 600 employees already, and steadily taking over State functions. If you want an Overwidth permit in Victoria now someone in Brisbane will be squinting over a desk wondering where Digby is. 

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Never a serious injury, let alone a fatality at Gawler in my 50 years as a member there. Lots of deaths, mostly old ex-members with illnesses. A couple on the roads. A couple at other gliding places.

The over-allocation of resources to air safety in comparison to the risk is so striking that there must be an evolutionary reason for it.

My guess is that our arboreal ancestors often died from falls, and in support of that notion is the evidence that babies are born with a fear of falling, one of the very few inborn fears we have.

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1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Never a serious injury, let alone a fatality at Gawler in my 50 years as a member there. Lots of deaths, mostly old ex-members with illnesses. A couple on the roads. A couple at other gliding places.

The over-allocation of resources to air safety in comparison to the risk is so striking that there must be an evolutionary reason for it.

My guess is that our arboreal ancestors often died from falls, and in support of that notion is the evidence that babies are born with a fear of falling, one of the very few inborn fears we have.

Where did the guy who took off into forecast turbulence and killed himself operate from?

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 Constant vigilance and care and skills development is the only way to make/keep aviation safe. Being kept in the air by wings and motors, relatively fragile structures  requiring strict balance and not infallible control systems with winds and weather etc affecting you is not an area for complacency. One loose bolt or part failure  fuel blockage means much more when you are in the air than other places.  You can't just pull over and get a tilt tray. I've lost a lot of good friends /associates and had many component  and systems failures , people breaking rules and nearly taking me out to believe you can take a fatalistic approach to this matter.. Really, if you can't "think AEROPLANE" you aren't in the right frame of mind to be there. Its a special place. Nev

Edited by facthunter
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1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Where did the guy who took off into forecast turbulence and killed himself operate from?

It was a 172 from the South East or Western District, decided to go over the hills instead of around them.

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20 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I suspect the issues the NDIS are facing, with an uptake requiring a budget bigger than the moon landings will eventually solve the problems. There is an economic base forming which is likely to lead to more decentralised medical coverage.

I’ve been incommunicado for a few weeks. Interesting to see where this has thread has gone. 

 

Sorry to disappoint you though Turbs (and Tuncks) this issue of decentralised and limited specialists in regional areas is never going to change. 

 

There has been millions spent by health departments and specialist colleges to do it but has met with failure because:

1: you can’t train specialists in the regions because you need mentors there to teach them and you need caseload to learn on (which is not in the bush it’s in the cities) 

2:you can’t them to move there once they’ve qualified because they now have kids in school and spouse in a job and they can’t just be uprooted. There’s no prospect of tertiary education for the kids and limited advancement in the speciality for the doctor. 

3: there’s not enough caseload to have an income nor enough to keep up your skills as a specialist. 

4: patients get poor ( out of date or inexperienced) care from a specialist who sees one case a year of some illness compared to the specialist in the city who sees 100 a year. 

 

The reality is that transfer systems from the regions to the cities for medical care are here to stay.

 

( I’m a specialist in a regional centre and a director of a specialist department  and spend significant amount of time trying to get specialists to come here  to work and it’s often impossible) 

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All valid points and I don't disagree with any of them.

My thoughts were based on a case where a woman's husband had a workplace accident and suffered a stroke and was in a capital city rehabilitation centre. She'd racked up nearly 40,000 kilometres driving to the city to see him, she had teenage children who were over the situation and acting up and of course the husband had been the bread winner. The family was breaking up, and she resorted to a desperate Facebook video appeal for help. Within a week the husband had been moved to a regional city, still an hour away but well within her ability to get there after hours or at the weekend, and she was able to get a job to pay the bills. etc The transformation to her life of today was magic.

My comments were based on this expansion of treatment facilities into strategic country areas, and the success it is having, which in turn is fueling demand for a massive expansion. Wouldn't help in the areas you mentioned with today's structure, but there will be a big ball of money coming from the taxpayer as people see the benefits of what has started to occur with NDIS, whether it's getting people to the cities or finding away to bring the city skills to the country.

 

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Turbs, I think you are referring to the Technam which took off from Rowland Flat airfield, in poor weather,  to go to Loxton. It went into cloud at about 1000ft agl and came out in bits.

Rowland flat airfield is about 20km ENE of Gawler and is best known as the flying field for the Barossa model plane club.

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Well that makes another one. The one I'm thinking about was definitely a 172, I think from the South East.

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"The reality is that transfer systems from the regions to the cities for medical care are here to stay."

 

Well said Jaba-who. Great to have a medical speciallist who understands the reality of the immense challenge of providing some level of medical care to rural and remote patients encapsulate the issue so succintly, in one sentence. Brilliant.

 

I am in my seventh decade of life, having lived all that time in rural and remote except for five years of boarding school in Perth, and have observed the comparative provision of health services between city and country develop to an ever widening chasm. Today WA Country Health Services stated they have in excess of 100 vacancies for General Practitioners in the area that they service, which means we even have a compromised ability to provide Primary Health care, let alone address any patient requiring a Specialist. WACHS even conceded that there have been 170 occassions this year when Regional hospitals did not have access to a doctor!!

 

RFDS Western Operations and St John Ambulance WA have both accessible Annual Reports where the stats on Inter Hospital Transfers demonstrate a marked increase over the past decade. This is at the acute end of the spectrum. At the lesser end of the spectrum, any patient requiring specialist treatment is required to travel by road, by any very limited public transport, or even possibly a rare Angel Flight in WA. The transport logistics when you live in the bush and you are experiencing adverse health, needing to access treatment and care in the city just adds another component of stress. My late first wife had a five year battle with Breast Cancer, with multiple chemo/radiation therapies, so I am familiar with tyrany of distance. I also have ten years as an Angel Flight, and the majority of my runs was for country patients requiring treatment for cancer. With the help of the remarkable Earth Angels we were able to get chemo Pts from a Perth hospital to their own beds in just over two hours, usually before the whack of chemo hit them.

 

The prognosis for a country resident experiencing a major health issue is usually a lot poorer than for a city postcode, and whilst equity in outcomes will never be achieved, we should never the less use every means available to use to give country residents the best possible support. As such I will give strong, considered support for the retention of Angel Flight. We will never diminish the pain and angst that the two accidents created. As a pilot it disturbed me that on two occassions aircraft were on the ground, safely, yet two decisions were made to continue flight with such tragic results. There is our challenge.

 

The positive is for Angel Flight is the tens of thousands of flights when it achieved  exactly what it set out to do when it commenced fifteen years ago: volunteers willingly contributing to assist country people access appropriate medical care when it is not available locally.

 

How many people in the bush can attribute a more favourable medical outcome because Angel Flight enabled them to quickly be transported to excellent care. Anyone care to estimate the road trauma that has been averted by keeping patients and family off the road on long distances, when they are dealing with tiredness and stress? As an Advanced Ambulance Care Officer with St John WA I have attended my fair share of Motor Vehicle Crashes, all of them single vehicle. Funny thing is that I have never been challenged in my role as a volunteer ambulance officer, yet as a PPL pilot volunteer on an Angel Flight it is an issue!!

 

Canning Angel Flight might sound appealling. I would strongly contend otherwise, Review and refinement is entirely appropriate, and let it continue in its role of supporting our country communities, always safely.

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6 hours ago, turboplanner said:

All valid points and I don't disagree with any of them.

My thoughts were based on a case where a woman's husband had a workplace accident and suffered a stroke and was in a capital city rehabilitation centre. She'd racked up nearly 40,000 kilometres driving to the city to see him, she had teenage children who were over the situation and acting up and of course the husband had been the bread winner. The family was breaking up, and she resorted to a desperate Facebook video appeal for help. Within a week the husband had been moved to a regional city, still an hour away but well within her ability to get there after hours or at the weekend, and she was able to get a job to pay the bills. etc The transformation to her life of today was magic.

My comments were based on this expansion of treatment facilities into strategic country areas, and the success it is having, which in turn is fueling demand for a massive expansion. Wouldn't help in the areas you mentioned with today's structure, but there will be a big ball of money coming from the taxpayer as people see the benefits of what has started to occur with NDIS, whether it's getting people to the cities or finding away to bring the city skills to the country.

 

Somehow a long winded reply from me disappeared into the ether and I won’t have time to repeat it all but the crux was:

 

The NDIS is $3billion underfunded in forward estimates and is being narrowed in its scope to deal with the unexpected huge take up. 

Theres no big wad of money going anywhere for funding anything outside of the narrowing range of defined disability. 

 

It doesn’t cover middle duration potentially  curable medical issues of the type that AF takes people to the cities for. 

 

Even Rehab for stroke is not something that is a one size fits all and highly specialised modern stroke rehab is by the same limitations I mentioned before limited to big cities. 

Sub-optimal broad treatment is like everything else ( shopping, banking and entertainment) something regional people accept if they want to maintain jobs and family in the regions. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Jaba-who said:

Somehow a long winded reply from me disappeared into the ether and I won’t have time to repeat it all but the crux was:

 

The NDIS is $3billion underfunded in forward estimates and is being narrowed in its scope to deal with the unexpected huge take up. 



Theres no big wad of money going anywhere for funding anything outside of the narrowing range of defined disability.

There's an old saying: "Two men looking out through bars; one saw mud, the other stars"

NDIS for the governments who've managed its spectacular birth has been like a horse with wings.

If you don't think there's a big wad of money going anywhere that's fine, it doesn't have to.

 



It doesn’t cover middle duration potentially  curable medical issues of the type that AF takes people to the cities for.

 

No

 

Even Rehab for stroke is not something that is a one size fits all and highly specialised modern stroke rehab is by the same limitations I mentioned before limited to big cities.

No 

 

Sub-optimal broad treatment is like everything else ( shopping, banking and entertainment) something regional people accept if they want to maintain jobs and family in the regions.

Yes

 

26 minutes ago, Jaba-who said:

 

 

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On 28/08/2019 at 12:16 PM, walrus said:

Families are decimated by road accidents every day of the week. So a few die in air crashes.....who cares? 

 

If if we let CASA and it’s ATSB lapdog regulate road transport, we’d all be driving at 30 kph daylight hours only, wearing crash helmets, 4 point harnesses and roll bars. We would also have to stop when it was wet.

 

Everything in life carries risk. Get used to it.

Actually families are decimated all over the world every day with wars, starvation, all kinds of killing and maiming.  But this particular family decimation is mine and hopefully your family is not decimated at some time also. 

 

As you have said "Everything in life carries risk. Get used to it."

 

Here is what my families decimation is:

 

On the 28 June 2017, a plane crashed upside down into the ground at an angle of 30°, flipping over to the right side facing in the direction from which it had come. When that plane finally came to rest the first third of the aircraft had been compressed into the rear section; within that smashed front section was our daughter and granddaughter. The investigation by the ASTB indicates that from the time the aircraft left the ground our daughter and granddaughter had only seventy seconds of life remaining, seventy final seconds of abject terror as they plummeted upside down towards the ground.

 

After fifty years of marriage, raising two children, both of whom made extensive contributions to their community, we are left without the single most rewarding outcome that any parent could ever hope for; enjoying our daughter and her daughter moving into their futures, growing up, finding love and yes, losing love. We will no longer share the joys of their lives, knowing that we as parents/grandparents were behind them with our love, experience and wisdom, to help to make their journeys easier. 

 

But instead we will spend the rest of our lives mourning, endeavouring to put our lives back together somehow. And while the grief might get easier with time, it will always be a shadow over what was, what is and what will always be. because of an avoidable mistake.

 

 

For twenty years we lived on a small farm of eight hectares; it was mostly self sufficient with its own water collection and heating/cooking was provided by our own wood lot.  As my wife and I grew older, we planned eventually to subdivide the property once that option became available with regards to town planning. In 2015 we finally obtained permission to divide the property into blocks; we submitted the plans of the development which were subsequently approved. The figures estimated that, after sales, we would profit between $2.5 and $3.0 million.

 

However, the psychological and emotional trauma following our tragic loss made it inconceivable to remain in our family home. Together with my wife of 52 years we had to leave. In such a short time frame, there was little interest in the purchase of the property other than from developers; we incurred a huge financial loss forced to sell the land for $.7 million.

 

I subsequently spent 25 days in a mental health institution, the “Black Dog” still circles but anti-depression medication keeps it at bay. All this was paid for out of the public purse.  My lovely wife has also suffered many health issues due to the stress requiring ongoing doctors and specialist intervention and medication, including anti-depression medication, again paid for out of the public purse. 

 

My son has suffered a marriage breakdown and now lives with us, working part time, claiming unemployment benefit and managing depression with medication. I leave you, the reader, to add up the costs to us and to the Commonwealth of Australia. My wife and I are in our early seventies and our son has just turned fifty. Those final years we dreamed of and planned for are now destroyed and so are we.

 

But, I suppose we will have to just "Get used to it".  Just pray that one day you and yours never have to just "Get used to it". 

 

 

plaque.png Tracy in pain.png Birthday.png Penney Farm.png Happy birthday.png IMG_0278.jpg

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Thanks Brian for putting the human side to this crash; some people are just plain bloody insensitive.

Fortunately the decisions about what is going to happen as a result of  this crash are not going to be in the hands of people with that attitude.

They have no idea of the big picture.

 

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Insensitive is a synonym for uncaring & thoughtless. 
 

As I have already said, out of the 3000+  volunteer pilot on AF volunteer pilot there are a lot of responsible aviators who are careful, sensible and not prone to take chances.  But there has to be and are the opposite.  Pushing their abilities into dangerous situations (familiarity breeds contempt).  The get away with it and that empowers them to uncaring & thoughtless actions which can and do lead them into making more daring situations.

 

If this poster is a pilot they are the type of pilot that AF needs to weed out of their volunteer pilot list.  I can only wonder if the two pilots that lost control of their aircraft ever exposed their own family members to the same situations that they allowed to happen with their AF passengers.

 

Insensitive is also a synonym for uncaring & thoughtless. 

 

 
 

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7 hours ago, Brian Perry said:

If this poster is a pilot they are the type of pilot that AF needs to weed out of their volunteer pilot list.  I can only wonder if the two pilots that lost control of their aircraft ever exposed their own family members to the same situations that they allowed to happen with their AF passengers.

Insensitive is also a synonym for uncaring & thoughtless. [/quote]

 

 
 

I think you might have misunderstood; I was referring to insensitive posts, not AF Pilots.

This is not an AF site. Af Pilots are Licensed in General Aviation, and although it is possible that one or two might come to look at this site, it is mainly for Recreatonal flying people who operate smaller two seat aircraft/ultralights/trikes/parachutes who would not qualifly for an Angel Flight.

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I am sorry for your loss. I stand by what I say. Tragedy is all around us every day but we ignore it. Your tragedy, respectfully, is no different from thousands of others although I understand it’s personal impact. Your reaction is also perfectly normal. However your claim that your personal tragedy is somehow so strikingly different from the norm that, because of it, Angel Flight is somehow to blame and needs to be destroyed or changed beyond recognition is not justified by it.

 

I am not some armchair idiot with no empathy. I have suffered divorce, the slow death of a later partner by cancer, and various vicious attacks in my life. I am a volunteer firefighter and have unfortunately seen tragedies just as bad as yours. My son is a policeman who has seen much worse death and suffering than I have and is now paying the mental price for that. I am now fighting two other personal battles, through no fault of my own, just like you,  that have the capacity to destroy what’s left of my life.

 

I wish to suggest to you that the  best response, outside religion and suicide, is to try to rise above these tragedies and do good. For example, why are regional health services so rotten that AF is even needed? How can you assist AF in its mission in memory of your family?

 

If you allow it, as it seems you might have, bitterness, rage and anger will consume you, making you another victim of the accident. 

 

Walrus.

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On 13/08/2019 at 9:46 PM, turboplanner said:

The flights were handled by Pilots in Command. They had no one to blame but themselves. CPLs are the ones who have the extra training, extra experience indecision making, and usually IMC qualifications.

Sorry Turbs but strongly disagree with your generalised statement.

 

Many CPLs have indeed undergone significant extra training and accumulated considerable experience, including in decision-making. But a number haven’t and we read about the consequences.

 

There are also many PPLs, including a few former RPT captains, who have accumulated a lot of the necessary. I likewise accept there is a probably larger number which hasn’t. 

 

I think the correct marker for Angel Flight is a sufficient level of training and experience, utilised in a suitably equipped aircraft.

 

The licence doesn’t make the pilot.

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On 28/08/2019 at 5:07 PM, turboplanner said:

Where did the guy who took off into forecast turbulence and killed himself operate from?

Was that the CPL in the Aero Commander who met Mt Disappointment in a hurry? RIP.

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Holding a particular licence doesn't guarantee  perfect outcomes in all cases,  but having the appropriate skills is essential IF you operate in IMC. I don't  particularly care which organisation(s) operate these flights. Certain basic rules must be adhered to..  regardless. Nev

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