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Trainee pilot makes emergency landing at Jandakot Airport after instructor blacks out

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13 hours ago, poteroo said:

 

My understanding is that a qualified flying instructor actually did the 'guidance' - not the ATC

This would be part of the reason they kept him circling for an hour, to get the right people in the tower where he needed them. The other would be to get the fire trucks fuelled up.

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It would be a pretty poor emergency response service that didn't have its vehicles fuelled & full of foam & retardant etc 24/7.

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1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

It would be a pretty poor emergency response service that didn't have its vehicles fuelled & full of foam & retardant etc 24/7.

Yes, that was probably understood.

 

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Actually, at 11:10 in the video the pilot says he normally flies a 172... definitely not first lesson then. However, a very stressful situation for him and the entire team reacted well. Yep, a C150/152 is probably one of the best aircraft you could have in this situation, possibly only bettered by a Cherokee with a wider track and a bit more cushioning from ground effect. Outstanding job by everyone involved though. I hope the instructor is ok, I suspect he will find it hard to keep his licence... seizures can be difficult to diagnose definitively, and while he may never have another it will still be a question mark against him for the rest of his career if he has a career left... 

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 Ground effect works on all planes . As the ground rushes at you, you say $#1t, and pull the stick back.. Nev

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10 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 Ground effect works on all planes . As the ground rushes at you, you say $#1t, and pull the stick back.. Nev

LOL, yep, but the amount varies, and Cherokees are notorious for it... Surprisingly, it is Cessna that came up with "Land-o-matic"

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17 hours ago, kgwilson said:

This is just another example of how much folly there is in the insistence of medicals for GA pilots. A GA instructor needs a class 1. A hangover from WW2 that should have been thrown out with some sensible process replacing it. It is only good for the time the person has undertaken the medical. As soon as they walk out the door anything can happen and in this case it did. You can bet that CASA will have no comment on this. The fact that there is no demonstrable benefit other than so called public perception won't faze them at all. As with previous similar events they will ignore it and espouse how they and their political masters are keeping us all safe. Makes me want to puke.

Not quite kgw.  Instructors/CPLs can now just have a class 2. But only if they are just instructing and/or cargo piloting.

 

I don’t know whether the instructor in this case had a class 1 or a 2. Cos the reality is that most instructors actually are on their way up the food chain and do charters and other air work when they can so most have a need to keep a class 1. The only instructors with a class 2 will be the older ready to retire type guys who do a bit of instructing for some pocket money etc or to keep their Ma and Pa flight school going ( and we know they are now a rare breed due to all the CASA over-regulation. 

 

Sadly CASA won’t let this faze them. What’s the bet they use this as argument to ramp up medicals. 

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8 hours ago, rankamateur said:

This would be part of the reason they kept him circling for an hour, to get the right people in the tower where he needed them. The other would be to get the fire trucks fuelled up.

The audio I listened to was only 29 minutes long from “emergency emergency emergency” call to end of landing roll. I don’t think it was edited.  

 

 

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I think what we heard was the transmissions, there was obviously time spent flying with no transmission and that was not recorded.

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Karren, I  flew the Cheerokee 140 when it first came out because I had to.  and a lot of time in the C-150 which you could  easily land in two tennis court lengths when you flew it a lot. All my initial flying was on the DHC-1 Chipmunk and the DH-82A Tiger Moth. Ground effect is a height  (of the wing)v/s wingspan thing so any low wing will have an advantage, all other things being equal. The Fowler flap on the highwing Cessna's, with considerable washout on the wings, makes them a pretty accomplished plane in this area. ALL planes need accurate control on Landing and any time you have excess speed you run the risk of having the nosewheel contact first which can rapidly ruin your day.. Landing fast is a bad habit people get at places with long runways. Nev

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2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Karren, I  flew the Cheerokee 140 when it first came out because I had to.  and a lot of time in the C-150 which you could  easily land in two tennis court lengths when you flew it a lot. All my initial flying was on the DHC-1 Chipmunk and the DH-82A Tiger Moth. Ground effect is a height  (of the wing)v/s wingspan thing so any low wing will have an advantage, all other things being equal. The Fowler flap on the highwing Cessna's, with considerable washout on the wings, makes them a pretty accomplished plane in this area. ALL planes need accurate control on Landing and any time you have excess speed you run the risk of having the nosewheel contact first which can rapidly ruin your day.. Landing fast is a bad habit people get at places with long runways. Nev

I'd never made the connection before: the faster you come in, the lower you AOA and the more likely you are to bang the nose wheel. Thanks.

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 Speed affects AoA and flaps affect it as well .  With an efficient flap system you have to lower the nose (pitch attitude) as you take more flap until you slow down a bit. IF you do a flapless approach it's much more nose high (and faster) so it's not just the speed. It's both .  Nev

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Just now, facthunter said:

 Speed affects AoA and flaps affect it as well .  With an efficient flap system you have to lower the nose (pitch attitude) as you take more flap until you slow down a bit. IF you do a flapless approach it's much more nose high (and faster) so it's not just the speed. It's both .  Nev

The 150 in the vision looked about right to me, with the nose wheel well up out of the way.

You mainly talk about taildraggers, so might not be aware that in GA we are trained (ro should be) for the nose attitude in flap and flapless configurations.

If you talk on here about "lowering the nose" you could inadvertently have people lower the nose right into the danger zone for wheelbarrowing. Several years ago a small grouips started point and shoot, aiming the nose fof the runway "because that's what jet airlines and fighters do", and there was a series of broken nosewheels as people tried it out.

 

The Cessna lands very well on the mains, but a lot of 172s are held too flat and use up about twice the runway length they need to.

 

The Cherokee lands quite nose high. and can be reefed back in ground effect about a foot from the ground to produce a nice chirp as the wheels spin up, and sits firmly on the ground as the big wing acts like a smow plough.

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The Piper  (and Beechcraft) system is a cruder simple flap that provides some extra lift and a lot more drag as a % compared to the Cessna and doesn't have the pitch up tendency, to the same extent. Every plane I know exhibits a nose up approach attitude flapless  regardless of where the  "extra"wheel is. The nosewheel has no bearing on the approach attitude except it can be an issue if you put weight on it before the mains. I have always emphasised keeping weight off the nosewheel particularly with Jabiru's., I fully qualified when to lower the nose AS YOU TAKE FLAP UNTIL YOU SLOW DOWN A BIT.. and only with an efficient (fowler) flap system which increases wing area and riggers AoA. which can result in ballooning above the desired approach path, as well  but I didn't wish to complicate things.

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I learned on Musketeers and Warriors, and I can remember my instructor shouting "Get that wheel back in your gut and hold it there,"

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I don't know how many remember, or knew about, the 80 yr old lady in the U.S. who landed a Cessna twin, after her 81 yr old husband collapsed and died at the controls.

She didn't ever hold a pilots licence, but took some flying instruction around 30 yrs before, at her husbands insistence, that she try to learn how to take over, if he ever collapsed at the controls.

One engine was out of fuel as she landed, so she landed on one working engine that was spluttering, as it ran out fuel, too.

She did a hard landing and collapsed the nose gear, but got the aircraft down in one piece.

I reckon that would be very difficult to keep yourself composed under the stress of both trying to land an aircraft with little flying experience, and knowing your life partner of 58 yrs was dead beside you.

The lady passed away just 3 years later in 2015.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/80-year-old-lands-plane-after-husband-dies-7618015.html

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 In an emergency you must work out what is (still) working for you and assess priorities. ie What  BASICS must be done to achieve the safest outcome for the occupants and others first and the plane and property second.

     What would be really nice to be done and what you might do if you had all day doesn't come into it. If you have an uncontrollable fire you have very little time to do much and getting back on the ground (safely) is the first priority.. If the situation is one where there is no immediate danger seeking further information is often advisable. Follow up checklists etc or contact sources by radio. Use other people on board if applicable... Resource management. . Notify airport of intended landing .

      IF you only think of the hundreds of people behind you, that might not be in your (or their) best interests if it overwhelms you. IF the plane arrives safely, so does everybody on board. Nev

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They don't need a demonstrable benefit. They will say if it wasn't for the medicals this would happen even more often.

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On 03/09/2019 at 7:12 AM, rankamateur said:

This would be part of the reason they kept him circling for an hour, to get the right people in the tower where he needed them. The other would be to get the fire trucks fuelled up.

TBH, if I was the instructor, being kept circling for an hour during my medical emergency would have seemed a bit unfair. 

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Not unfair when you get them both down safely compared to killing or maiming both of them..

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On 29/09/2019 at 6:00 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

TBH, if I was the instructor, being kept circling for an hour during my medical emergency would have seemed a bit unfair. 

There's a rule in first aid where you do not put more lives at risk of injury in a rescue.

Unfortunate for the injured it seems, but best in the end.

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