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Jabiru7252

Plane Crash in the Hunter Valley

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Bloody awful news of the trike accident. Have the peoples names in the accident been released yet. I knew a trike pilot down that way and hope he was,nt involved eh.

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2 hours ago, kaz3g said:

it seems crazy to me that the VFR Coastal route isn’t available. There’s nothing complicated about asking for a clearance and it’s not like you would be asking to enter an incredibly busy CTA like SYDNEY. 

 

I find the Controllers are always lovely and helpful....especially after I’ve told them I’m as old as the aeroplane 🤭

I hear it all the time that Contollers are little hitlers or always grumpy. I have to say that I have never found that to be the case either here or over the ditch. I did my conversion at Coffs & the instructors kept telling me to say things in a particular way because that't what the Controller liked. ATC syntax is pretty universal so I thought why should I change the way I communicate after 30 years so I didn't. I never had an issue with the controllers at any time so I couldn't figure it out until I found that there had been some words between the other parties. Get someones back up & they will return the favour.

 

Some used to have a beer at our Aero club bar & I got to know them, spent time in the tower etc. In pre GPS days I flew in controlled airspace as often as possible. It was the safest place to be. Completely out of the blue they'd call & advise I should steer 2 deg left or whatever to get back on track, always said Cherio when I was leaving their zone & handed me over to the next guy etc. When the airwaves were not busy the banter could be quite amusing.

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Quote

Have the peoples names in the accident been released yet.

 

No, they have not yet been formally identified. It takes time to find the close relatives, and organise physical identification of the deceased. The only information is the men were aged 44 and 71.

 

There's nothing in the crash related to the Williamtown air corridor. It was purely and simply in-flight structural failure, it was seen by a witness on the ground.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/two-dead-after-light-plane-crashes-near-newcastle-20191130-p53fn9.html

 

 

EDIT - Yes, ID of the victims has now been confirmed. More information in the link below.

 

https://www.nbnnews.com.au/2019/12/01/woodville-aircraft-crash-victims-identified/

Edited by onetrack
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This conversation has really drifted....

The lane issue should to be moved to it's own heading elsewhere in the forum, and kept alive because it is important.

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5 hours ago, JG3 said:

This conversation has really drifted....

The lane issue should to be moved to it's own heading elsewhere in the forum, and kept alive because it is important.

The aircraft came down near Paterson Lane, Woodville which looks very close to the lane, so the lane issue should stay in until that is verified.

Also the weather forecast at the time.

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23 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Crickey Don, you want us to be a target instead of you?

Military airspace is like nuclear reactors, great idea as long as they aren't in my backyard!

 

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I've been through that lane and would consider it one of the best and easiest to navigate anywhere. Just keep the railroad on your left, both ways, and you have good separation. No need to be hunting for other landmarks to navigate or watching an iPad, just watch straight ahead for any oncoming traffic not following the 'keep to the right' rule when in a lane.... As I remember it, enough open paddocks most of the way.

 

I've also been through that VFR coastal lane, and that's not at all suitable for recreational aircraft pilots even with transponders. That lane runs right across the final approach to the Williamstown runway, where heavy and fast aircraft are coming and going frequently. They and their controllers know their procedures really well and are very quick and precise and abrupt in their communications. Not a good place for amateurs, even with some training.....

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10 minutes ago, rankamateur said:

Military airspace is like nuclear reactors, great idea as long as they aren't in my backyard!

 

I don't mind having CTA near us; pretty easy to keep clear of the steps. 

When vast areas of your region go red that's a worry. The probability may be remote, but who wants to meet a jet fighter?

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Trike wings are very strong - I can only think of a couple of reasons why they might fail:

1. base bar pin/bolt not secured properly

2. damaged leading edge tube (spar) or cross bar

3. exceeding pitch limits resulting in a tumble - no indication of tumble by witness

4. failure of side wires (unlikely as these are duplicated in all certified trike wings I'm aware of

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Can anyone confirm

(a) Paterson Rd, Woodville is within the VFR Lane (looks like it is on the maps I looked at.?

(b) A SIGMET for severe turbulence was active at the time (Sat 30/11) about 12:00?

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[Edit to my previous post.]

That location appears to be right on the eastern edge of the lane.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Garfly

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14 hours ago, Keenaviator said:

Trike wings are very strong - I can only think of a couple of reasons why they might fail:

1. base bar pin/bolt not secured properly

2. damaged leading edge tube (spar) or cross bar

3. exceeding pitch limits resulting in a tumble - no indication of tumble by witness

4. failure of side wires (unlikely as these are duplicated in all certified trike wings I'm aware of

Given the report of the SIGMET, how would a trike go in severe turbulence in terms of handling and structural integrity?

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No 3. If the investigation reveals a negative G break to the leading edge/s that would indicate a tumble.  Also, damage to the base bar from impact with the front strut of the trike would support this scenario. 

Edited by Keenaviator

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18 hours ago, Keenaviator said:

Trike wings are very strong - I can only think of a couple of reasons why they might fail:

1. base bar pin/bolt not secured properly

2. damaged leading edge tube (spar) or cross bar

3. exceeding pitch limits resulting in a tumble - no indication of tumble by witness

4. failure of side wires (unlikely as these are duplicated in all certified trike wings I'm aware of

I've been flying various types of trikes with many different wings and power units ie 447 to 912s since 1992.

 

I have only heard of a 'Wing Clap' twice.   The first was caused when a crossbar ( control Bar ) bolt was not fitted with it's wing nut, or if it HAD been, it had come off due to NO safety ring being attached.

 

The second was the fact that the aircraft was struck from the rear by a Cessna 152, which had drifted across from a parallel runway on the pilot's second solo go around.

 

The First example resulted in a single fatality. This was described as a serious rigging error.

 

In the case of the collision, the instructor managed to spiral the wreckage to a safe landing, with minimal injuries to both himself and his student. 

 

 

( Regrettably, the student in the C-150 did not survive the ground impact. . . The collision had occurred at approx 400 feet AGL. )

 

A structural failure of the kind described, must be VERY unusual, and therefore needs serious engineering investigation.

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A lightweight trike, two mature blokes, no doubt pretty large and heavy, and they go flying in conditions where a severe weather warning has been posted. What could possibly go wrong? 😲

 

What never ceases to amaze me, is virtually every single time an ultralight bites the dust with a fatality or fatalities, the supporters come out with, "Oh, he was such a wonderful bloke, and such a professional and careful pilot!".

He might have been a top bloke - but, No, he wasn't a careful and professional pilot, he and his pax are dead - 9 times out 10, because they failed the ultimate pilot professionalism test.

 

I may end being proven wrong here, and the inquiry may find the cause was the generally rare event of structural failure. But 9 times out 10, the fault lies with bloke holding the control column.

A harsh analysis, I know, but one that is backed by crash investigation after crash investigation summaries.

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In rough air it's a balance between stall margin and overstressing the airframe. The slower you go the less airframe stress but you mustn't lose control.  I had gusts registering 60 knots variation on one occasion in a C-150 and I'm surprised it didn't break up..  Perhaps more info on turbulence "handling" might be opportune?  Nev

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The actual crash site of the trike is marked on the Google Maps link below. I found it by comparing features in the media chopper photos, to actual features on the map.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/32%C2%B039'24.3%22S+151%C2%B035'43.1%22E/@-32.656911,151.5736834,12662m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x6b73448c581e270b:0x37b70738c85dd36f!2sPaterson+Rd,+New+South+Wales!3b1!8m2!3d-32.7005186!4d151.586784!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d-32.656757!4d151.5953171

 

Here's the media photo I used for comparison. The red arrow marks the trikes crash site.

Woodville-crash.jpg
Edited by onetrack
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I guess the following two links are relevant for further information, as regards the Williamtown Air Base restrictions.

 

Williamtown Aeronautical Study (2008) - https://www.r2a.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/williamtown_study08final.pdf

 

 

 

Edited by onetrack
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On 01/12/2019 at 5:09 PM, turboplanner said:

I would suggest you do it at Bankstown; 
I would never choose to fly into Bankstown. Mostly people like me just want to transit safely. Coffs is one of the few controlled airports that I might like to land at - and Coffsis no Bankstown.

 

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19 minutes ago, DonRamsay said:

 

Re #46

The only reason I said learn at Bankstown is because you would get the most realistic scenario to show you the challenge.

Picking an easy location you know is dead most of the day is the same as doing all your training on clam days; training is easier but you go ass up first time you have a crosswind.

If you scroll back to the Williamtown controller handing out his advice, he gets into a sequence which rolls off his tongue easily, but when you visualise having to memorise all those terms and instructions and perhaps respond, you can see you need to be up a few levels if something fast comes into your sector etc.

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From SAFA:

There have been a number of WSM members who have expressed concern over reported safety of the wing involved in the Alex Blanch accident, near Newcastle NSW.
At this stage we have carried out preliminary inspections of the wing and there is no indication that it "folded up" as has been reported in the media.
The Streak 3 wing type has operated without incident for over 2 decades.
This particular wing has been utilised on this aircraft for the past 3 years.

We have initiated an independent detailed analysis of the wing, in an effort to determine if it contributed to causation. 
Reiterating the point that at this stage we have no reason to suspect that there is a systemic issue with the wing type.

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11 minutes ago, Jabiru7252 said:

A witness clearly described the wing 'folding up'. 

The witness on Channel 9 was moving his hands as he spoke. He put the heels together and brought the fingers together. A metallurgist could sort that out if there’s any disagreement.

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