RAAus - Time to first solo

[Guest pelorus32]

RAAus regulations say that a pilot certificate requires at lest 20 hours and of that at least 5 must be solo.

 

How realistic is it to be able to get your pilot certificate in the minimum time?

 

Please only answer this if you were an ab initio RAAus pilot certificate candidate. No GA conversions please.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[PaulN]

Hi P32,

 

I won't say it was easy but managed my Pilot Cert from ab initio at 26.4 hours 5.7 of which were solo. XC and Pax endorsements took a while longer of course. If it's possible, I think the best approach is to do your training in a concentrated block of time rather than over a long period. Mine was achieved in just under two months ... but the learning goes on.

 

Paul

 

 

[Ed Herring]

Hi Guys

 

The minimum requirement for an RA-Aus Certificate is certainly achievable which is probably why the minimum is set at 20 hours with 5 hours solo.

 

Not many do actually achieve it however, and it is far from the average! There are so many variables and factors which contribute to firstly going solo and ultimately gaining the certificate.

 

At the end of the day even though we all remember our "first solo" with pride, does it really matter when you have logged say, 200 hours?

 

While going solo early is certainly something to brag about...BUT...it is the time in the seat and the knowledge learn't and retained that counts when 200 hours is logged.

 

Good subject this one!

 

Regards

 

Ed

 

 

[leestanley]

As I am learning... time to solo seems to be governed significantly by the weather... I am currently getting lots of great experience in the cct at YTDN in strong crosswinds (10+ kts) but until I happen to get down there on a calm day I won't be going solo...

 

I've come to realise that time to solo is not that important... the quality of instruction and experience in difficult conditions will always stand me in good stead... as long as I can afford to burn $ in the cct! Thats the rub - until I go solo (and can start accumulating those mandatory 5 hours) I won't be able to get any closer to my certificate and I'll have 20 hours up in a couple of weeks.

 

Loving it though!

 

 

[slartibartfast]

As I am learning... time to solo seems to be governed significantly by the weather... I am currently getting lots of great experience in the cct at YTDN in strong crosswinds (10+ kts) but until I happen to get down there on a calm day I won't be going solo...

That was happening to me until PaulN made me realize that I could get up at 3:30am, drive the 1.3 hours to YCOM, get 2 hours flying in, and still get to work at a reasonable hour. I have loved the early morning flying. Smooth. Spectacular. Still.

 

This morning I got 2.6 hours in which has put me at 20 hours with 6 solo. My instructor says I'm ready, so I'm quite excited.

 

I highly recommend getting some early mornings in if your instructor is as obliging as mine.

 

Ross

 

 

[leestanley]

Hi Ross,

 

I have thought of that as well... but I'm on the kids school run most days :) so that will have to be a school holidays option!

 

At the moment im getting 3 hours in a weekend and I always fly early in the day so all I can do is wait for the Gods to favour me with a headwind on 04 or 22. I've been ready for first solo for the past 2 or 3 hours... I'm aiming now for my basic cert by about 26 hours, I hope ;)

 

Well done on being ready to go now, Ross!

 

Cheers,

 

Lee

 

 

[numptie]

Lee,

 

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones when it comes to time. I managed to get all of my training done and have my pilot certificate issued at 20 hours.

 

I found that, like you, being at the coast I was doing a lot of flying with the instructor in reasonably heavy winds and I think it helped me learn to FLY the plane better so that when it came to solo, it didn't matter what the conditions were like. Luckily, my first solo was on a calm day.....for the first 3 landings, after that it started getting a little windy. In the 16 months since then, I think I've had 2 or 3 calm(ish) days.

 

I do agree with the others, if you want to fly in calm/light winds, get in some early morning lessons, trust me, it's worth it when you see how great your first solo is.

 

Bob

 

 

[maxamos]

Lee, I am another one that learnt at Tooradin on Jabiru's and also went through a bit of extra crosswind training before I got the right day when I could go solo. After soloing the first time, also then found it wasn't easy to get the right days to be able to get out there and practice solo due to the conditions, ( and my lack of experience to handle them). Sure does make it easier in the long run, and makes you a more competent pilot.

 

 

[Guest bateo]

I was quite opposite to you guys, Although I had my GA background and doing a conversion in a Thruster tail dragger, My instructor wanted to take me up in rougher conditions before I went solo (all dead calm). There was a week or 2 before he could pick a rough enough day to do my 4th hour... It was fairly rough for a rag-and-bone plane but managed, let me go solo in it afterwards...

 

 

[leestanley]

hi maxamos,

 

pleased to hear im not the only one :) seriously though, the additional hours in difficult conditions have been great - i'm feeling very confident. over the past 3 or 4 hours i've actually completed all the post solo dual work as well whilst waiting for the right day for that elusive solo! the precautionary search and landings on french island were great fun.

 

are you still down at YTDN? might bump into you one sunday...

 

cheers,

 

lee.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

(Part 1 - as I have used more than the permitted space )

 

Aye well! I trust this will not be off-topic but I feel that if this thread is not just a tad off beam, perhaps a different ray of light may be shed on it! This is from the instructional side of the fence and perhaps will be a bit too blunt for some tastes. But it may be some light reading!

 

You may also note that I have retired from flying instruction so have no ‘advertising’ drum to beat! But I may have a very large ethical and standards drum to thump!

 

I do not actually qualify for this poll. I was ‘taught’ too many years ago now and soloed on a very small, busy, combined operations German airstrip (shared with the military) and I hardly spoke the language – which did not matter as we had no radio anyway.

 

My original log book states that I went solo in 1 hr 49 mins that comprised 27 landings. I had allegedly been through the entire pre-solo syllabus (gliders) and had the mortifying experience of being told that I was sent solo mainly because the instructors felt that I had started going backwards and they better get me while they could! So I flew three successive launches, circuits and landings – that were not without some event – but I did not break anything and was passed!

 

It then took me 18 months to teach myself to fly on that basis. Reading everything I could, listening, watching, gleaning every bit of experience going – but that depended entirely how I, as an individual, understood and applied that information. That is not a very solid base to build a pilot upon!

 

During that period one incident stands out very clearly. I undershot by over 200 metres on one approach and did not know why. There was no drama – that airfield was huge. But the reaction was immediate! I was being ‘disobedient’ and was condemned to drive the winch for the rest of the day as punishment. There was no question of check flights, remedial instruction, which may have examined flaws in my skills base that may be corrected – just punishment!

 

At the end of the 18 months I became an instructor myself. I enjoyed the challenge and had natural ability for teaching, but I was mainly driven by swearing to myself that never would a student of mine go through what I had been through. In my own early time period of learning to fly, some of my fellows survived, most dropped out in fear and it is ‘too hard’, some died or were terribly injured. There had to be a better way!

 

There had been nothing wrong with my instructors in human terms – they were skilled pilots and great guys, several became firm friends. But they knew nothing about teaching or flying instructional teaching, primarly because they had never been taught the subject! Instructing back then was ‘show me you can do what I do and that is good enough’ –whether you understood it and could apply it in a variety of circumstances was another matter that you ‘learnt’ yourself. That situation is still very prevalent in instructional skills, knowledge and consequent attitudes! Does that I hour 49 minutes give any special validity to me as a person?

 

So my main message is forget about how long it took you to go solo but look at the surrounding factors that determined that situation. This is no form of race or status symbol but very much a variable set of circumstances that the student may control as much as the instructor!

 

An insight into circumstances may also help because how you interpret situations dictates how you react to them – and therefore also how you value or measure events.

 

Take the 20 hours minimum. Everyone knows that this is just the ‘minimum’ you must do for your certificate but it is only too human to use the figure as a measuring tool along the lines of how much you exceed the minimum indicating how ‘good’ you are. But that minimum itself is now not what it once was!

 

It was in fact a 20 hours experience minima within a controlled AUF instructional environment in an approved school aircraft. If you could get through the required syllabus in less time then you could fly off the balance solo. But a wheel came off this in a big way when a Pilot Examiner was caught issuing pilot certificates without sending the pilot’s solo – or more accurately saying they were solo when he was still in the aircraft with them!

 

In his defense he pleaded that there was nothing in the Operations Manual that actually stated anyone had to fly solo at all – just have satisfactorily completed the flying training syllabus. He was quite right – there was not!

 

That was fixed but in a quite blunt manner – the 20 hours minimum remained but now 5 of that HAD to be solo! Why 5? Who knows, it could have been 1 or 10! But the change effectively ‘moved the goalposts’ for people who were using the 20 hours as a performance indicator – particularly those in a difficult trainer.

 

The vast majority of my instructing in ultralights was in TST E and T500 aircraft – the most difficult trainers on the AUF/RAAus Register. I ended up with superb pilots from them but I needed every minute of the 20 hours on dual instruction to do so and quite often more! And this was despite applying refined instructional techniques in a created integrated environment of lectures, pre and post flight briefings, flight instruction and a series of home study briefing notes, plus careful selection of flight conditions to suit the standard the student was currently at!

 

For myself and my students the new requirement effectively meant a 25 hour minimum when the 5 hours solo was added. This concerned me. AUF had done nothing wrong because it was just a ‘minimum’. That would not affect what I did because my students got what they needed not what they may have wanted and I used as much time as was required to do that. But it was going to affect other people because flying schools are in competition and have to eat – and a pilot certificate is just a pilot certificate no matter where you get it or in what aircraft type!

 

So the emphasis of the new change actually moved things from hours as a measuring tool to dollars! This did not affect me too much because my personal needs are modest and I always had a steady flow of students who were measuring on quality not hours and dollars.

 

But it most certainly did affect others! Just as it is human nature to use the 20 hours as a measuring tool then so most certainly nobody is going to pay more for the same thing when you can get it somewhere else cheaper! The hard facts of life are that the average student could get through on a Gazelle in around the 20 hours v’s me and my Thrusters at about 25+ which equates to $500 - $700 for (at the time) exactly the same piece of paper!

 

There are however a considerable amount of other variables and once again one needs to be careful about using measuring sticks based on assumptions. How about the instructor? This is a very great influence on time to solo or certificate. No matter what innate ability a student has they may only progress as fast as the instructor is able to, or will, let them.

 

(part 2 follows)

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

(Part 2)

 

There are two aspects to this – the equation of standards/ability and the human side of the instructor.

 

An assumption is made that because a person holds an instructor rating then you are dealing with a known quantity. Really? How can you be when in a system that has no standardized instructor training syllabus? Where what syllabus actually used is up to the individual submitting an idea to another single person to look over for approval? Where a Pilot Examiner is required to endorse, upgrade and renew instructor ratings but there is no requirement for that person to have an instructor training category? Does not make a lot of sense does it? But it does make a great deal of difference in time to solo and/or quality of pilot.

 

Let us take a quick look at the Pilot Examiners (I was one once). In my tale above the AUF/RAAus Pilot Examiner involved was convicted and jailed on over 40 criminal counts brought by CASA over two successive prosecutions. A couple of years ago another RAAus Pilot Examiner was jailed for criminal misuse of an RAAus aircraft! It has to be a bit hot if you go to jail for it does it not?

 

We are talking about the cream of the crop! Pilot Examiners are the leaders in instructional and general piloting standards. There are normally only about a dozen active across the nation at any one time and we are talking about one sixth of them actually going to jail for criminal flying offenses??? So what price the lower levels and what price the overall control?

 

A simple example that does impact vastly on student training time! The instructor can (normally) be only as good as they were originally taught to teach – unless they do something drastic about their skills and knowledge themselves! Basic instructor training is in two parts; practical flying training and PMI (Principles and Methods of Instruction). Generally these are two separate subjects and the trainee instructor only gets rudimentary guidance on interconnection between the two via ‘behaviour patterns’.

 

One most important factor of PMI is time periods for learning and attention span. Normally the average person can only tolerate about 30 minutes of intensive concentration when learning new skills. Add a bit on for low stress taxiing and you wind up with a 40 minute maximum ab-initio exercise period. Yet schools consistently book and fly to one hour periods! What happens to the other 20 minutes – because over a 20 hour time period that equates to six and a half hours of wasted time and, say, about $900?

 

Personally. I never flew my ab-initio students for more that about 30 to 35 minutes and then in conditions appropriate to their standard. I got them down, out of the aircraft, and they rested while we had a chat about how they were going and what they needed to do next. Then back into it again!

 

So for the one hour ten minutes flight time they got with me in two sessions I was picking up the equivalent of another 50 minutes of flight time from two flights with a ‘one hour session’ school. Expressed differently – my 20 hour students were actually getting about 37 hours actual instructional value for the same money and much less time! I also scored the major additional benefit of morale control because I was getting them out of the aircraft fresh before fatigue left them making mistakes and ending the session on a down note! Maintaining motivation and enjoyment is a vital part of quality teaching!

 

Now we come to the human element. An instructor is not carved out of steel, is not a god, is not some kind of absolute – but is very much a human being just like you!

 

Certainly their abilities and consequent work output (standards) will be dictated by their own training and aviation history – but no matter their potential expertise they are as vulnerable to the Seven Deadly Sins as much as anyone else! That may dictate what they do, how they do it, and why they do it more than their training does. Good quality standards and efficiency depend more upon individual ethics and strength of resolve than they do on training, ability and experience!

 

I will restrict myself to just one more variable and that is the flying conditions employed for instruction. Here the instructor and student alike may operate in an unholy alliance of waste that ultimately turns into frustration, time and dollars.

 

There have been several words of wisdom expressed in this thread about flying in demanding conditions and I agree that the more experience you get then the better you may be – but will you?

 

It is difficult in skilled and caring hands – it can be a disaster in others!

 

Let us look at one very glaring basic – Stability is not part of our syllabus yet is the most vital exercise that should be taught and fully understood! Stability and predictable behaviour on the part of the aircraft is something everyone has to feel totally comfortable with. It also underpins most of our airworthiness requirements!

 

OK a quick question - how many readers know what Lateral Damping is? Of those that do how many of you use it as a major factor in Airmanship terms for low speed control of your aircraft?

 

Lateral Damping (or more accurately shedding lateral damping) is in fact the key factor in Stability and a firm grasp of it is the single most valid reason why full spinning need not be a mandatory flying training exercise! But Lateral Damping is part of Stability and Stability itself is not on the syllabus???

 

If Stability is taught then you form a natural platform upon which rests the remainder of the flying training syllabus. BUT there is an equation that has to be controlled. There are (from the student’s point of view) three main elements to flying – the aircraft itself, how they are controlling it and being able to see clearly what their efforts result in, and the air the aircraft is flying in.

 

Fly the student initially in smooth air only and it becomes just the aircraft and the student - who can see clearly the effects of stability and then their control inputs to overcome or modify stability. You seriously impair that basic understanding and confidence if the aircraft has a variable roll rate for the same control input, the airspeed is constantly varying with no attitude change under the influence of vertical gusts, and the thing is yawing under the influence of side gusts!

 

Build the firm base of confidence and understanding and you will not only get a better quality pilot but also they will get there far more quickly! Do not do this and you may leave some serious gaps in the basic piloting skill as well as waste time.

 

Too illustrate this: On day I was doing a standard Stability lecture and I always operate on an ‘open house’ principle – anyone around could sit in and listen free of charge. After I was finished a guy walked up and shoved out his hand! He introduced himself as an 1800 hour commercial pilot, with twin, night and command instrument ratings. This is what he had to say – “Thanks Tony, that is the first time I have ever realized I do not have to hold the yoke all the time and why! I always thought that you had to ‘fly’ the aircraft all the time if you were not using the autopilot!’ Bit sobering is it not?

 

There are some practicalities though! I am not in dispute with the concept that all experience has value, but that presupposes you understand what is going on! But I do disagree that initial training can be flown in most conditions on the basis that ‘they will have to deal with it eventually so they may as well start now!’

 

Would you, for example, first start someone on learning to drive a car in a busy city main street in the rush hour, or in the pouring rain, or at night? Or would you ensure that they first had sure and certain control of the vehicle before meeting the distractions? Would you, because someone had their heart set on becoming an ace surfer, first teach them to swim in 6’ surf or does it sound more sensible to put them in a swimming pool? Then why not do something similar with an aircraft?

 

Certainly we cannot dictate the weather and training continuity is also important for time conservation. So the wise instructor plans the entire flying training syllabus to leave some upper air exercises that can be fitted in to keep things going and get the student away from mechanical turbulence near the ground, and fly between thermals to avoid the convective turbulence aloft.

 

OK, this has been a long read and I have still been very superficial – there are many other areas I could have touched on. I will conclude with some advice.

 

‘Time To Solo’ is a consuming point of interest to so many – evidenced by the readership views of this thread! But it should not be used as a measuring stick of individual ability because there are so many variables – many outside the control of the student.

 

But there is much control the student can exercise, and some do! Select the aircraft type that will give you where you want to ultimately get to and train on that – even if it does take longer because it is harder. If you just want a pilot certificate for the sake of having one and being able to fly then go for the easiest type about.

 

Select a school that has an active process of pre and post flight briefing sessions to underpin flight instruction. This should be backed by realistic briefing notes/literature for home study at your own learning and comprehension rate. Particularly select a school that actively uses it’s lecture facilities. They all have to have one and are actively inspected annually to ensure that this is so – whether they actually use them is up to them!

 

Some have palatial premises that are used as ego trips (when they are used). I used the corner of a hangar adjacent to my aircraft. When I was cautioned by the Ops Manger that I was ‘rock bottom’ on permitted standards I pointed out that I was not interested in the quality of the wall the white board was screwed to but the quality of information that was going onto it – and that was happening usually twice each flight any student made!

 

DO NOT be put off by your age. Damn! I once had an 80 plus year old student and the last thing he had flown was an SE5A in the first world war! The old goat went like a train and put to shame the 19 year old fellow course students learning with him!

 

Ensure that you have an instructor that you can get on with and who is treating you as an individual human being, not a target, and is not attempting to turn you into a corn flakes packet that has to be stamped out of a mould to work! You are an individual and need to be treated like one! I loathe this ‘Master/pupil’ relationship so often used for dominance! Your instructor WILL AND MUST control you! But it does not have to be an army assault course! More preferable that yourself and instructor just take a gentle walk down a path the instructor has trodden so often before, shows you the sights and how not to stub you toe on the tricky bits, at a rate you feel comfortable with, and you both enjoy yourselves taking that trip!

 

If you have no choice other than what is available locally then accept that it may take longer than you want! NEVER put yourself down as a person over the hours taken to do it. If you want it you will get it but be aware of your options. Insist on good conditions, get your ass out of bed early to get the good initial training flying weather!

 

Finally – Are you worried about a few hours and status? I have had guys come to me with forty and fifty hours in their books. One had over 70 and had been through two serious crashes. They had been told they would never fly, or suspected that was the case.

 

But they all did! They all turned out to be great friends that I value because they were all great people in their own right! Even the instructor does get a reward now and then!

 

Aye

 

Tony

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

(Part 2)More preferable that yourself and instructor just take a gentle walk down a path the instructor has trodden so often before, shows you the sights and how not to stub you toe on the tricky bits, at a rate you feel comfortable with, and you both enjoy yourselves taking that trip!

Tony,

 

thanks for your thoughtful post. I don't know much of the history of the AUF/RAAus so I won't go there. But I'd like to respond at least in part.

 

I was the originator of this thread. The question represented a bit of a low moment for me in my training and I will explain why as I go along. Firstly though the quote above says it all for me. For many years I ran workshops for university researchers on how to analyse qualitative data. An interesting process and best achieved with a sense of partnership.

 

Why a low point? I'm old enough and have enough confidence in myself that it shouldn't have been a low point but it was. There I was with around 20 hours dual. A supportive team of instructors and a strong feeling that I was learning every time I flew. Yet subtle messages came from others that 20 hours was a long time with no solo. The reason was clear: the weather persisted in being blustery and unstable. In fact we still joke that my problem is landing without a crosswind - I have so little experience of it!

 

Despite the best efforts of my instructors I began to feel like it was me that was failing. I was intersted to know what the experience of others had been. The question was about me at a point in time.

 

Now a month or two on I couldn't give a toss that it took me so long. I was at nearly 30 hours before I soloed. Everyone around me acknowledged that I had been ready for a good while. So whilst we waited for the conditions I worked with my instructors to continue the learning, to keep facing new challenges and to keep contributing to my development as a pilot and to developing some semblance of airmanship. I intend that that process of development will continue until I stop flying or I die.

 

When I did go solo it was basically a non event. The breeze that had been straight down the strip all morning dutifully swung around to a decent crosswind so that I knew that the world was to rights. Since then I've felt like I've made good progress on the basis of a really sound platform of skills and learning. Yes it's cost me a bit but I'm not in this for a race. I've got a wife, kids, friends, responsibilities and I want to be around for that. The hardest person to satisfy about my flying skills and performance and attitudes is me. That's how I like it.

 

The instructor, besides the imparting of knowledge and skills has two other important tasks as far as I'm concerned: to challenge the initiate and to support the initiate. The balance between these two elements and where that balance is placed at any given time is for me the true art of facilitating the learning of others.

 

Thanks for a thought provoking post Tony.

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

the weather persisted in being blustery and unstable. In fact we still joke that my problem is landing without a crosswind - I have so little experience of it!

 

Hi, Looks I'm not the only one never to see still conditions. I'm still waiting. I think I get 1 hour every 50 hours still air. Boy it's great when that happens.

 

Anyway, my rather roundabout way to first solo was like this. My wife was working as a real estate agent and needed a photo of a rural property. The owner had just purchased a very early WB503 Drifter so she when up as a passenger took some photos I seen them that was it for me.

 

Only place to train was the local GA so off I when and did an ab initio ina citibria. The instructor told me you'll never be a pilot you can't even taxi in a straight line. So I left it like that till someone started instructing in FNQ

 

I learnt from an instructor who self taught himself to fly , retired now (it was actually possible in the very early days of ultralights) No radio present. Right hand circuits at 500' on a 400m strip across swamp and canefields in a converted WB503 to R582. Extremly primitive conditions ie what briefing room? What whiteboard? But heavy on practical airwork.

 

Permenent xwind plus heavy windshear being on the eastern side of Mt Bartle Frere , being around 10,000' high Went solo in around 10 hours Then flew around till time up. So much for the GA instructor.

 

Unusual occurences were engine failure downwind plus cane rats bailing out when just lifting off used to give me a bit of a jump. Good fun

 

Micgrace

 

 

[Guest rxbrumby]

Did my first solo today. Ive had 9.7 hours of dual instruction. the feild that I fly from is near the coast, and has a hill ridge right next to it so it is nearly always windy and bumpy. Makes for a good challange as the wind direction is constantly moving. I even had an RAAF Orion and 2 fighter jets in a holding pattern just off the threshold of the strip, waiting to do an ANZAC day march flyby in the city. And all on my 32nd birthday.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Congrats. That's quite a challenging first solo environment.

 

Onward and upward.

 

 

[ahlocks]

I completed my first solo today after just shy of ten hours duel. I could have done it one or two hours ago according to my instructor, but I just wasn't happy with the consistency of my round outs. I thought "screw it". What's the rush to solo?

 

I want to be what I call 'bomb proof' when flying. That is, to have the routine down to a point that when a distraction arises, flying is basically muscle memory while I deal with the distraction. To lower the work load so to speak.

 

It worked. My solo wasn't an earth shattering event or better than sex for me. It was routine. I still made errors and had a touch of butterflies mid downwind but routine kicked in. The butterflies were dispensed with and the error(s) corrected. The landing was tidy and a mile stone ticked up with a smug grin.

 

My point, apart from bragging that I finally got around to it, don't be rushed to solo. You alone will know when your are ready. And thank you to the participants of this site for the collective wisdom displayed here.

 

Oh yeah, 'Crash Lander' (Chris?) it's your bloody fault that I started this little adventure.

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B

 

 

[PaulN]

Good news indeed Steven. Well done . Wise words too ;).

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest b1rd]

(Part 2)

One most important factor of PMI is time periods for learning and attention span. Normally the average person can only tolerate about 30 minutes of intensive concentration when learning new skills. Add a bit on for low stress taxiing and you wind up with a 40 minute maximum ab-initio exercise period. Yet schools consistently book and fly to one hour periods! What happens to the other 20 minutes – because over a 20 hour time period that equates to six and a half hours of wasted time and, say, about $900?

 

===================================================

 

On day I was doing a standard Stability lecture and I always operate on an ‘open house’ principle – anyone around could sit in and listen free of charge. After I was finished a guy walked up and shoved out his hand! He introduced himself as an 1800 hour commercial pilot, with twin, night and command instrument ratings. This is what he had to say – “Thanks Tony, that is the first time I have ever realized I do not have to hold the yoke all the time and why! I always thought that you had to ‘fly’ the aircraft all the time if you were not using the autopilot!’ Bit sobering is it not?

 

===================================================

 

‘Time To Solo’ is a consuming point of interest to so many – evidenced by the readership views of this thread! But it should not be used as a measuring stick of individual ability because there are so many variables – many outside the control of the student.

 

===================================================

 

But there is much control the student can exercise, and some do! Select the aircraft type that will give you where you want to ultimately get to and train on that – even if it does take longer because it is harder. If you just want a pilot certificate for the sake of having one and being able to fly then go for the easiest type about.

 

====================================================

 

DO NOT be put off by your age. Damn! I once had an 80 plus year old student and the last thing he had flown was an SE5A in the first world war! The old goat went like a train and put to shame the 19 year old fellow course students learning with him!

 

===================================================

 

If you have no choice other than what is available locally then accept that it may take longer than you want! NEVER put yourself down as a person over the hours taken to do it. If you want it you will get it but be aware of your options. Insist on good conditions, get your ass out of bed early to get the good initial training flying weather!

 

Aye

 

Tony

A fascinating read from a very wise man. I have taken the liberty of taking excerpts from Tony's comprehensive and enlightening words that I, at least, can relate to. There is far more in Tony's complete offering (both parts 1 & 2) than I could ever comment on with my limited experience so I will stick to comments on the above extracts. A few personal thoughts ....

 

I begin my first flying lesson tomorrow. Wind factor looks okay at this point (stay that way .... please !).

 

1) Learning periods and attention span: I have thought ... what the hell 2 or 3 hours learning in a day (expense aside !)... easy. Perhaps not. 1 hour at most should do me. And that'll probably stretch my brain but I want to retain and savour rather than rush. Perhaps just 40 minutes. Good advice Tony.

 

2) Aviators are never too old or too experienced to learn and welcome free exchange of ideas. That's refreshing and humbling.

 

3) Time to Solo: As long as it takes, or whenever the funds dry up hehe. Whichever comes first. I definitely won't be chasing the air speed or trying to crack the magic 20 hour mark.

 

4) Aircraft choice: I have chosen a tail-dragger to learn in. My choice and it will be the Lightwing. Why ? Because it's not a nose job, is my preferred configuration for an aeroplane, and is a little more challenging so I'm told. I don't mean this to sound arrogant or smarmy it's just the way I feel .... I can't help it ... and there's nothing wrong at all with nose-jobs.

 

5) Age and SE5a's: Just marvellous. I wish I could have heard some of the old lad's stories ....

 

6) Inner confidence, drive and good weather: Must learn to drag my sorry **** out of bed early. I think learning to fly is just the ticket.

 

Thanks Tony. Appreciate your passion for aviation. More please.

 

cheers,

 

b1rd.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Aye B1RD,

 

 

Thank you for your kind words and I trust that others will take encouragement from your sane approach to learning from a student’s perspective.

 

 

To change the subject slightly and briefly. No, my 80 year old had no tales to tell and that is a different and darker side of aviation. I extracted his background from my usual assessment process and he gave me the essentials but there were overtones there that events were such that he did not want to discuss.

 

 

Interesting, because he came on that course with a mate who had commanded an Australian artillery battery at the Somme. He did not want to talk about it either! Both of them were certainly ancient but both were most formidable men of character and stature.

 

 

It put me in mind of a slightly earlier time when things became very sticky in an aero club bar one evening after flying. One of our senior members was an ex Pathfinder Lancaster pilot. A very junior club member began pestering him about what it was like to fight in aircraft and ‘tell us all about it’.

 

 

The response was harsh in the extreme! Bill said “I did my job which was to place tons of bombs into city centres full of civilians. I did my duty but take no pride in what I did!†He then went on to explain a few facts of life regarding callow youngsters asking silly questions that I shall not repeat here.

 

 

That sort of ruined the evening but I chimed in and asked Bill what the Lanc was really like to fly. He responded to that OK and out came the tales of coming back with two engines out and what you had to do. Just flying and what is involved in operational flying. It turned out to be a great evening but pitched in a suitable way – not on something so many of them dearly want to forget!

 

 

These days I see cooks running RSLs – the real warriors stay away – they do not want to remember and do not want to talk about it! So a gratuitous piece of advice – if you come across one of them still left just doing their own thing then leave them alone and let them enjoy themselves. We all honour them but be careful in the way you do it!

 

 

Tony

 

 

[Guest b1rd]

Again, good advice Tony. I had already replied but one thing I hate on forums is when you time out and on logging in again the complete post is lost in the ether somewhere ! But never mind. I shall try again, briefly to gather my thoughts.

 

I am passionate about the early years of aviation from 1903 until the end of WW1. These aviators were true pioneers. And by flying minimalist ultralights that is the best and most affordable way I can think of to replicate those extraordinary times.

 

I'd hope, if ever I met a combat aviator from WW1 (never happen of course) or WW2, I wouldn't be so brash as to ask silly questions. My grandfather along with many other young Aussies joined up in 1916 and fought in the trenches. In the 13 years I knew him he never spoke about it.

 

However, I would love to have known what the SE5a was like to fly. The Viper version is arguably represented as the premier Allied fighter scout of WW1. In fact there is a parallel between it and the Camel where the Spitfire and Hurricane played similar roles in the early years of WW2.

 

The WW1 book Winged Victory is a brutally honest and highly disturbing fictionalised account of life in the RFC and the horrors of war yet depicts the majesty of flight very well. The author was a Camel pilot in the RFC and wrote it many years after wars end. It is one of the best books I have ever read.

 

It is no wonder, for those who actually experienced aerial combat, are loathe to speak of it particularly when approached by some youth with no idea and brought up on glamourised propaganda movies or garbage such as "Pearl Harbor". They couldn't even spell it right lol.

 

Lest we forget. They weren't all angels nor were they all brave but they all went through hell. It was slaughter on a grand scale. And that is what we should all remember.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Hours to Solo

 

While I'll probably get flamed to pieces for saying so, I personally think 20 hours required to get a RAA license is a joke.

 

I still find it completely ironic that in Queensland, they are increasing the minimum hours for a learners permit holder to drive a motor vehicle on the road to 100 hours, and yet a person can get a RAA license, flying a vehicle significantly more complicated than a motor vehicle, in 3 dimensions and not 2, in only 20 hours.

 

I'm the first to admit I took a damn sight longer than 20 hours to go solo. I'll also freely admit that I REALLY screwed up my first one ;) BIG time! Stuck the plane on it's roof in fact, after ballooning on landing ;) In hindsight, while I thought I was ready, it's pretty obvious now, with over 170 hours flying time now logged up, that I wasn't. Was it the instructors fault? Hardly. I consider him excellent, and finished my training with him without concern. But it didn't change the outcome of the incident which, while falling under one of those "**** happens in life" categories, still isn't something I'd ever like to repeat.

 

Mind you, by all levels of the curriculum, I WAS ready for the solo at that time. Again, in hindsight, I can't believe anyone can possibly be "ready" at 20 hours. Then again, I took my flying to a significantly more advanced level before going solo again. The outcome? I was much more confident in my abilities then, than I ever was at "20 hours". But even now there are things I feel further training can assist, and plan on going back for a bit shortly.

 

With yet another 2 dead aviators in SE Qld this past weekend, and another couple of accidents in the past few weeks alone, adding to a growing list of dead pilots this year, is 20 hours enough? Look at it in perspective again...

 

100 hours practical experience, and a MINIMUM of 12 months experience, to get a PROVISIONAL drivers license in Qld. You then need another 2 years, and further practical testing, to qualify for an open license!

 

It takes a minimum of 6 hours practical as well as several additional hours theory to get a boat license! Most boating theory places I know here take 2 full days of instruction, from early morning to late in the day, to complete the task. Even to then get a jetski license (my other "recreational hobby") takes an additional few hours!

 

Yes, perhaps at well under 20 hours, you're officially "ready for a Solo". But are you REALLY competent?

 

Don't forget one big thing, which I'm sure a lot of students forget in the "excitement". During your Solo hours, the aircraft isn't insured, and if you screw up, you can be pretty much guaranteed the bill won't be a small one.

 

The RAA, on their web page, make a very valid statement...

 

When a new pilot graduates from a flight school she or he has received the Certificate, usually with cross country, passenger and radio operator endorsements. The newly fledged pilot has acquired some skills and some situation awareness and judgement, has developed some piloting techniques but possesses little aviation knowledge.

 

 

 

Thats what you get in "20 hours". "Some" skills, and "little" aviation knowledge...

 

 

I think this ongoing emphasis on a "20 hour course" is doing the industry no favours whatsoever. It takes as long as it takes; no more, and no less. I still remember thinking, as a prospective student, that "It's just 20 hours...that'll cost $x amount!". Thats what all students do! What a load of bollocks! We all know it can cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than $x! Given this, I can understand why some students reach this estimate amount, with no end of their training in sight, and simply give up and walk away! If the decision to learn to fly boils down to "This many lessons will cost me this amount of money" then you probably can't afford flying anyway, and should do yourself a big favour by not even considering it.

 

A good swift size 11 "reality check" up the butt is more than overdue there.

 

Scotty

 

 

[slartibartfast]

I got my cert at 20 hours and have many times since thought "Should I really be up here?".

 

There are so many things I think should be covered, but in the end I decided that as long as I have been taught the skills to "fly the plane" (/mantra), then it is up to me from there on. That's where this forum comes in. If every prospective pilot was steered here (or somewhere equilvalent - no bias) the information available would steer them onward and upward.

 

One can be ready to fly solo, but what does that mean? To me, it means you have the skills and knowledge to take off, fly a circuit, and land it. Locally. In perfect weather. On a day ending in "y".

 

There is a long way from there to competent.

 

Good post Rocko.

 

 

[timshel]

My story...

 

I did solo in 15.7 hrs (according to my logbook) but my instructor said it varies greatly between pilots but as a "generalisation" it is easier to teach kids than older people...I am 35 and probably sit somehwere in between. He teaches in a gazelle and after having now flown a jab 160c I can certainly say I find the gazelle MUCH easier to fly. (this probably means the Jab students make better pilots?) To illustrate the age point - He was recently on school camp (never had flying as an elective at my school!!) where they had sixty (60!) kids go solo from ab initio, in 1 week. There were, I think, 18 instructors and as many planes.Jabs, tecnams, and gazelles. They flew on average 8 hrs per day. It was reported in the Age newspaper. The record was a sixteen year old girl who went in 6.7hrs!! Apparantly she was the best student he had ever had and said she was certainly destined for the airlines. He said she appeared to be "fatigue proof." I wonder if there has ever been any studys done on age versus piloting skills. ? Not trying to make a point here - just wondering. I also wonder if there has been any correlation between "time to solo" vs. incidents and accident rates?

 

Anyway back to my story, I went solo in 15.7 and went radio endorsed at that time as I passed the BAK. Got my certificate in 20.7, PAX endorsemet 5 hrs later, and am about halfway thru Nav endorsement. Have just over 30 hrs total avaiation experience. I started training Easter 2007 and got my PAX on 30.09.07. I kept the whole thing a secret from my wife and my kids and my first PAX other than my instructor was my wife. I told her I knew how to taxi - thats all. Should have seen the look on her face when I started making radio calls and rolled down the runway at 60 knots. She was freaked to say the least!!

 

My "greenness" was well illustrated as we did a dual (my instructor hold a commercial PPL) 3.5 hrs navex into military airspace 2 times, flew VFR routes into two airports, mid air - diverted across mountains (again into miltary airspace) to a third strip before again having to organise a 4th clearence to fly via the sea back home. Honestly I can handle the little gazelle pretty well even in weather at home but as soon as things got unfamiliar- at times I was overwhelmed - made mistakes, got runways confused (why can't they paint numbers on gravel runways??), even once mixed up live and dead sides of the circut, misquoted my altitude once etc. I never do this in my home circuit. My instructor made me do all the piloting, navigating, (GPS was off) and radio work. Whenever I was unsure he would say "you're the pilot in command...." He let me make mistakes and he let me feel the pressure of a busy cockpit over unfamiliar territory. At least the weather was calmer than predicted. I am glad he did, as it brought me down to earth. (not literally) Sure I may have my certificate, but I am not yet an airmans bootlace. I am fully aware that is my lack of knowledge, not my lack of skill that is the greatest threat to my life in the air.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Tim,

 

great story. congratulations on your certificates.

 

I reckon this story has got some food for thought. Particularly the story of hte young woman who went solo in 6.7 hours and your last paragraph.

 

I'm aware of some work that was done in an airline environment that looked at what made someone successful when they went through command training - moving from being a first officer to a captain. They key determinant was their "management" ability and the amount of "headroom" that they had over and above their normal workload.

 

I think a very similar thing applies to your XCountry story - and the same would be true of many of us low hours pilots. We use up so much of our available processing power doing the "normal" stuff that we don't have enough left over to manage the whole process of flight and the flight system. This includes ATC, other a/c, navigation, systems failures, emergencies etc.

 

Over time we get better at the "normal" stuff and end up with more headroom for the other stuff. So we become better airmen/women rather than just OK mechanical pilots with good stick and rudder skills.

 

The evidence from the airline work is that some people - in that environment - would never have the management capacity to manage the role of being captain. All those guys are "good" pilots. The real question is are they good enough "managers" and do they have the excess processing power to be good PICs?

 

Food for thought as we all develop. Even if it is just in a Tecnam or Gazelle.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mike