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Pindan

Engine failure practise

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Hi All

 

Being a Jab owner I thought I should practise engine failures……..haha

I live in north WA on the coast so conditions at this time of year are probably not the best. It can be 40 C with a 30 knt sea breeze over changing country of hard rock, sand dunes, both yellow and red and up to 30 meters high and over the coast. Its quite turbulent conditions.

The PHB says that the best glide speed for the 230 is 60 Knts the stall speed is 54Knts clean. However I was thinking given the type of air I fly in should I practise the EF drills at 70 Knts to give myself a margin of error considering its practise and not a real EF situation.

If I can make the glide at 70Knts then in the real event I should have no trouble at 60Knts

What do people think about this idea?

Thanks Paul

Edited by Pindan

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Your planes stall speed depends on it's actual weight. Allow extra margin for turbulence and ability to safely manouver where  it applies.  If you are gliding into a wind you need to increase speed for best ground speed (Have a big think about that one) Be prepared to glide slow where its needed don't just get into the habit of being fast. Aim a bit into the field and only when  absolutely sure of making. it refine your aim point. Nev

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Stall times 1.3 would be my recommendation. One tight turn with such a small margin may see you come unstuck fast. Also, best glide speed doesn't always matter when you are weaving about to get a good approach into a paddock without an engine running.

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OK if you are serious about getting up to speed with forced landings. Find a quite strip around you can use if you have not already got one. 

Land on it,  and have a bag of house hold flour with you.  Put a line across the strip about a third down the strip. That flour line is you touchdown point main wheels.

 

Fly at different levels from 1500 ft to 5 thousand and further out then just being in a circuit. Practice away.

Do on different days with wind and direction and different wind conditions over time. Hot and gusty as well when you are up to it.   

It is worth doing this for an couple of hours at a time over a few weeks to get it right and get comfortable with gliding to a touchdown point.

Use different things like S turns and slide slip, different flap settings, and speeds  etc. Explore the differences of speeds and flaps in those specific conditions without exceeding flap speeds.

 

Always let someone know when and where you are doing this, and have a SAR time with the wife or however you pick - Just in case ,and they know exactly where you are and your track to get there.

 

 

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A good failure practice is to always treat every landing as if it was an engine failure. I always cut power at the end of downwind and am not happy with my performance if I have to apply power through being low. The ability to slip the plane to lose height is essential.

The ability to see where you are heading for is a good one, I have seen several people who had no idea of how to locate their aim point. It is the point on the runway that doesn't move up or down the screen as you descend.

There was one plane designed years ago, a Zenith from memory, which had no flaps and was not supposed to be side slipped. I don't know what you would do with an engine failure on that model. Maybe pray.

Carrying an extra 10  kts to account for turbulence sounds like a good way to hit the far end of your chosen landing site, which is far better than hitting the near end as you should be going a lot slower.

One good thing to bear in mind is that when the engine stops the plane belongs to the insurance company, by that I mean do all you can to save yourself and stop worrying about the plane.

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Have to agree Yen,

did half a dozen touch and go's yesterday and ended up dragging myself in with power on most landings .

Stayed at it till I finally got it right. Gets a bit scary when you are way too low and coming in short and you know if the fan stops you are into the fence. Hadn't flown for 8 weeks so some more practice over the next few weeks with a bit of side slipping.

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Never stretch a glide either. It just doesn't work. Practicing at a known field/paddock is OK if you realise that when the real thing happens you won't know what height the field you are landing on is and you won't have gotten used to the wind or the surrounds either. Keep the field in sight as close to all the time as practicable. It may also have a slope you didn't see at height or even a SWER. Land on a used track in a field if possible as it's sort of proven vehicle useable. I'm not convinced you should do ALL approaches power off. It's not applicable to gusty conditions and idling an engine  for a long glide  may make it unreliable if you need to do a go around or apply your judgement correcting, burst of power. . Nev

Edited by facthunter
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I was taught to clear the engine in any glides as a student, but living in central Qld it is seldom really cold here.

I did once have an engine stop during a glide approach, that was early morning at an Old Station fly in. I didn't bother trying to restart, just landed and then started. I don't think any of the people watching realised what had happened.

It is good to be high and with an idling or stopped engine, keep high and if you really need to get down to a glide slope, you can pull the nose up higher which is the same as being on the back edge of the power curve. All you need to do if you are getting low, is push the nose down. Don't try it unless you are happy flying slowly and know the plane. 

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There's a LOT wrong with THAT article. See the follow-up comments. Particularly. Micheal Berenhart is on the money with turning figures and there's issues with retracting the gear especially on a Cessna High wing., where you INCREASE the drag a lot during the retract cycle. To a lesser extent it also applies to other planes. If you are going down in rough country, the gear should be left down to absorb more of the energy. This doesn't apply when DITCHING even in shallows That's one time the gear should be UP. It's also most likely a Rotax 912 won't keep turning  with a   dead engine so a restart will include the use of the starter and take more time. Flying the plane properly is going to require most of your attention unless you are well set up and assured with the time to spare. Rushed action can be associated with errors. The other issue for forced landings is FIRE in flight and time in the air must be the least you can arrange SAFELY. IF you crash then, you are already on fire. Nev

 

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Here's what I've learned after mucking up some engine out practise...  If ever the engine really stops, I will get to base leg of the emergency landing field  as soon as possible and hopefully too high to proceed to finals right away.

Then do "S" turns,  each turn towards the landing area, until  low enough to halt the last S turn after 90 degrees and then land.

If there is a strong wind, the speed can be higher (70kts) and the touchdown will still be nice and slow. 

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Contrary to what is taught I prefer to have the landing site in line and not at right angles, or in other words I prefer to be on finals rather than base leg.

I find it much easier to judge an approach straight in rather than putting a turn in the procedure.

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Once you are in that situation, the die has been cast. The variation is based on "modifying" the  "Track"distance to run or by slipping S turns etc or on a draggy ship, do an overspeed dive to wash off excess height near the threshold in lieu of a sideslip . I hesitate to say anything is standard or best. but getting well downwind has risks and don't turn your back on the field (for Long). At your base turn you have the most options available to make adjustments.. If your approach is over a line of trees your straight in approach is almost ruled out. It's a big topic worthy of discussion and doing a bit of practice. If you have a fuel problem best to do the landing before the fuel runs dry. Nev

Edited by facthunter

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 Why be surprised? You are trained to "expect" an engine failure and pre brief on every take off. No engine yet made is immune from failure and while ever there's fuel taps some people will turn them to the wrong position or nor put enough fuel in for the conditions of the flight. Nev

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That's why you need practice turbs. It you turned the engine off every time, the element of surprise would be less.

Personally, I am very suspicious of how it is implied of some "thousand-hour" pilots that they are very experienced. They may be, but then again they might never have had an engine failure and would panic if one happened.

 

 

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 Hurting yourself to train to not get hurt isn't a good policy.  Risk management must be considered in all training. If you have an unending grassy plain to train over, you could shut down the engine but you would then be training for a big  grassy plain and not the "harder to find but often only good place" to land on and save yourself ahead of saving the plane if needed to be . Simulated engine failures, (engine idling reliably at the proper figure) with an adjustment in the back of your mind for the real effect (which should be known for your type of plane). IF you have an electric start you, or anyone else ,can (at altitude over a good area) stop the engine , "hypothetically" and that's NOT easy in some types even with switches off  and work out just how different the RoD is and adjust for it  in your mental calculations of how far you can glide. ALL pilots are regularly checked for engine failure , aren't they? It's really up to you though as to whether you are "surprised" or not but having  a plan in the back of your head to cover it will help a lot to ensure you do the right thing when it happens. Nev

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"only good place" to land on and save yourself ahead of saving the plane if needed to be "

Taken one step further the jumbo with full down elevator should have been inverted.

BUT

It's not in the book.

spacesailor

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An Air Alaska crew DID fly inverted and maintain control with a screw jack failure in a DC9 when it moved the stabiliser to the a similar position. Unfortunately despite their brave effort it could not be landed safely in the sea. Nev

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Not sure I’d agree with deviating from the published glide speeds. Most smaller aircraft only publish one speed, but the actual variation isn’t much. Any faster/slower, you’re in no mans land. I wouldn’t be increasing speeds due to headwinds. The best bet is to adjust your legs (downwind etc) in respect to time, not speed. 

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 Nev's right ( as usual ) about   more speed into the wind and  less downwind. The idea is to get the best distance possible from the height you have. This is also in the Jabiru pilot's handbook, where they give a rule of thumb. I think you adjust by a third of the windspeed .

As an extreme example, consider a 60 knot headwind. Your headway at 60 knots is zero. At 80 knots, you are penetrating at 20 knots.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ryanm said:

Not sure I’d agree with deviating from the published glide speeds. Most smaller aircraft only publish one speed, but the actual variation isn’t much. Any faster/slower, you’re in no mans land. I wouldn’t be increasing speeds due to headwinds. The best bet is to adjust your legs (downwind etc) in respect to time, not speed. 

People from GA forget or have not flown true ultralight aircraft and about the lack if "inertia" with some of our RA aircraft. That get affected with high winds and gusts. Some are like butterfly's specifically the rag wind types. Most of these publishes speed in RA aircraft are at best guidelines in my opinion.  I agree with adjust the legs but watch out when you turn into final as your ground speed  my slow by 30kts depending on wind strength and gusts. 

I prefer to be slightly faster above where i touch down then not make it over the fence.

Not being rude to you Ryann

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I think with a 60 knot wind I wouldn't be worrying too much about an engine out landing, but more concerned about getting out of the pane when it is on the ground.

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At Omarama, at the top of the climb which was above the mountain top, there actually was a 60 knot wind. Without the instructor, I would have been blown backward into the downwind side of the range.

But on the ground it was "only" about 25 knots. Gosh New Zealand is a windy place.

Going to Narromine a few months ago, I actually saw 150 knots GS with 90 knots ASI. There was dust rising from lots of paddocks, but I don't know what the wind speed was on the ground. This was at 10,000 ft.

So yes, a 60 knot wind near the ground is a bit extreme. I would sure hate to land in it.

 

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You sure the stall if 54 kts and the best glide speed is 60 kts. Those numbers seem too close together to me. In the Foxbat, IIRC, they are 42 and 54 respectively. Disclaimer: I have about 50 hrs. 

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