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".The course left quite a bit to be desired but it endeavoured to make the students think a bit more about their own shortcomings and vulnerability. On that score alone it was worthwhile. "

BULL

How does "jack & JILLS hill" Have anything to do with flying a 95_10 aircraft at all. & yes it was in that  overpriced stupid tomb. 

AND Yes it was compulsory reading !.

spacesailor

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This is the second raa aircraft in 2 months crashing on approach with the same outcome . Very sad to see this time of year , but this time of year has is not friendly for flying north of Brisbane in summer with the drought . The hot dry conditions that we are under due to 10 year drought  with hot dry wind increases your stall speed and sink rate on any aircraft . So the further north of Brisbane and west the conditions are not friendly  . I have lost a friend (CFI) a few years ago due to these same conditions on approach as well .   stay safe over xmass.    

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1 hour ago, dan3111 said:

This is the second raa aircraft in 2 months crashing on approach with the same outcome . Very sad to see this time of year , but this time of year has is not friendly for flying north of Brisbane in summer with the drought . The hot dry conditions that we are under due to 10 year drought  with hot dry wind increases your stall speed and sink rate on any aircraft . So the further north of Brisbane and west the conditions are not friendly  . I have lost a friend (CFI) a few years ago due to these same conditions on approach as well .   stay safe over xmass.    

The indicated stall speed will not change with temperature, altitude or density altitude. There will only be one approach speed in the POH. Fly this speed and arrest any sink with power the aircraft will not stall.  

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3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

As you would know Turbo there is no requirement to meet the ALA guidelines for private ops, fortunately it is up to each pilot to decide if they can operate safely.  

I was hoping someone would say something like this; but before commenting I have two disclaimers:

 

1. The airstrip itself may have nothing to do with this crash, so I'm not talking specifically about this crash or this strip. Aldo's comment could well cover all that was involved.

 

2. This is not legal advice; anyone who designs, builds, maintains, owns or uses an airstrip, should talk to a public liability lawyer to find out what their oblilgations are.

 

Just addresssing ALA guidelines:

 

The link says: "The information in this publication is advisory only. There is no legal requirement to observe the details set out in this publication."

 

This is not a get out of jail card for you; this absolves CASA of having to come up with a fail-safe landing area.

 

Further on CASA spells out who is responsible to make the landing area safe - you; it says you have to comply with CAR 92 (1).

 

You might then say "Well how the hell am I going to do that; I've never built an aerodrome before" or "We're just using is for XXX"

 

The fact is that everyone who is involved in changing the land from bushland to an operating airfield, owns it, uses it etc, has a duty of care to eliminate any forseeable risk. If you fly in there and you have dependents or carry a passenger you also have to ensure the same.

 

Your first protection against lawsuits would be that you had complied with this CAAP.

 

For that matter every CAAP which relates to safety has the same impact; if you comply with it you have the protection of an industry safety benchmark, if you don't and you have no equivalent you'll likely be stuffed.

 

 

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I noted the owner stated he'd bought the aircraft in a finished state and he had a total of 150hrs in his logbook.

Maybe that 150hrs didn't include enough experience of landing on bush strips with tall trees each end, and with increasing and adverse winds near ground level, after he took off.

I see where he took off around 06:00HRS, went for a fly around, and came back to land at around 07:00HRS.

There can be a substantial difference in wind speed near ground level, between those times.

Edited by onetrack

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Can anyone say if  Zenith 601's are fitted with an angle of attack, or vane type stall warning system?

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I still don’t see any effective analysis of incident data resulting in education or training to address common causes. 

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Guest deanfi

Strip looks very marginal , there seem to be a few better ones close by which could of been utilised if it was turbulent or not comfortable, maybe with the sister and and other person (partner ? ) Waiting for the return there was some kind of pressure to not go elsewhere, common accident theme in aviation.

Sad outcome 

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42 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

I still don’t see any effective analysis of incident data resulting in education or training to address common causes. 

Well the Coroner's report for Ross Millard lay idle from the time it was released on July 23, 2018 until I found it and posted it on December 5 2019.

No one would have known if this thread hadn't come up, so if you could get RAA to track the Coronial Inquests they are involved in and release links to the general public on Coroner Reports when they are made, that would be a material improvement.

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Just now, turboplanner said:

Well the Coroner's report for Ross Millard lay idle from the time it was released on July 23, 2018 until I found it and posted it on December 5 2019.

No one would have known if this thread hadn't come up, so if you could get RAA to track the Coronial Inquests they are involved in and release links to the general public on Coroner Reports when they are made, that would be a material improvement.

Not going to happen, would be bad for RAA growth, better to sweep it under the carpet. 

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They are abrogating their responsibility to members if they don't utilise that information to INFORM  and educate other pilots. It's a recognised and essential  process adding to safety, and the main justification for the considerable expense involved. Coronial inquests are usually finalised a fair time after the actual event, which some are concerned about, but THAT is probably unavoidable.  Sometimes it would have an implication of required changes to procedures also or an educational program. Nev

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10 hours ago, spacesailor said:

".The course left quite a bit to be desired but it endeavoured to make the students think a bit more about their own shortcomings and vulnerability. On that score alone it was worthwhile. "

BULL...

Spacey I agree that the HF course run by RAA is far from perfect, so perhaps we could help them improve it.

After all, it is our organisation and we should be doing our bit to make it work better.

 

What are your suggestions?

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12 hours ago, dan3111 said:

This is the second raa aircraft in 2 months crashing on approach with the same outcome . Very sad to see this time of year , but this time of year has is not friendly for flying north of Brisbane in summer with the drought . The hot dry conditions that we are under due to 10 year drought  with hot dry wind increases your stall speed and sink rate on any aircraft . So the further north of Brisbane and west the conditions are not friendly  . I have lost a friend (CFI) a few years ago due to these same conditions on approach as well .   stay safe over xmass.    

Dan

it is a little concerning that this is your understanding approach speeds (in fact all speeds) in the POH are indicated airspeeds The performance (eg landing distance, take off distance etc) may change but the IAS is the same no matter what. 

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Maybe climate change is now causing these crashes you know the drought and all that?

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9 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Can anyone say if  Zenith 601's are fitted with an angle of attack, or vane type stall warning system?

Mate this is not about instruments to tell you what aoa you are flying it is about feel looking out the front checking your ias and determining what you need to do next short strips and high trees can be very confronting as it can look worse than it actually is, it does take some practice 

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5 hours ago, Aldo said:

Mate this is not about instruments to tell you what aoa you are flying it is about feel looking out the front checking your ias and determining what you need to do next short strips and high trees can be very confronting as it can look worse than it actually is, it does take some practice 

Agree with what you are saying, have been flying for 36 years and fly my 54knot stall ac at a strip with tall trees at the end. I just think a vane type stall warning system adds a little extra protection for newbies or distracted pilots. Airspeed indicators have been known to malfunction. 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-149/

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MIght be worth editing the name of this thread.  Plane Crash Today has kind of lost its meaning.  Given a plane has crashed at YMMB this morning.

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People starting threads about crashes are well-advised to post the date, the aircraft type (if known), and the crash location in the title - it makes the thread much easier to find, more relevant at future dates, and gives other forum uses the immediate information they need, as to whether they want to read the thread or not.

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On 11/12/2019 at 9:31 PM, Old Koreelah said:

Spacey I agree that the HF course run by RAA is far from perfect, so perhaps we could help them improve it.

After all, it is our organisation and we should be doing our bit to make it work better.

 

What are your suggestions?

I tried to assist and was stonewalled.

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On 11/12/2019 at 6:44 PM, Thruster88 said:
On 11/12/2019 at 7:22 PM, facthunter said:

They are abrogating their responsibility to members if they don't utilise that information to INFORM  and educate other pilots. It's a recognised and essential  process adding to safety, and the main justification for the considerable expense involved. Coronial inquests are usually finalised a fair time after the actual event, which some are concerned about, but THAT is probably unavoidable.  Sometimes it would have an implication of required changes to procedures also or an educational program. Nev

Couldn’t agree more Nev. 

The process of investigating accidents and analysing data should be conducted by someone removed from the responsibility of aircraft operations and maintenance. The way things are now the Ops and Tech team would be biased against finding fault in their own depts. 

I work for an organisation with a very effective Safety Management System, it’s not difficult or expensive to maintain, but needs to be properly designed and transparent in its conduct. 

Edited by Roundsounds
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