Tomo Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Probably just the one day Perfect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracktop Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 The VNC says the LL for Class E is 8500 for the length of the coastal route.So this is a route through Williamtown Mil CTR Restricted areas - not CTA. I'm fairly sure no Xpndr is required, and I've done it quite a few times and been willing to get clearance and do the route. It's never been activated when I've gone through though (weekends every time), so I haven't had to. Has anyone done it while activated without a transponder? I'm sure I've spoken to people who have. You just tell Willy Clearance Delivery (130.35) "nil transponder". Should be right. Yes Ross lines up with my understanding :thumb_up: I haven't got my XC yet so it is just out of reach but my current understanding of training so far is that is doesn't require CTA (PPL) endorsement or transponder. If you had those wouldn't you be able to fly anywhere ( with Tower approval) through the area, and certainly not be required to maintain just 500ft along the coast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Actually Slarti the newest VNC (19Nov) has changed on what it was, on the charts E Lowest level is now 4500 and there is a section in NOTAMS about the change that reads:- WILLIAMTOWN AIRSPACE (WMX) C0673/09 NEW CLASS E AIRSPACE ESTABLISHED WILLIAMTOWN/NEWCASTLE AREA EFFECTIVE 19 NOV 2009. CLASS E COINCIDENT WITH THE LATERAL BOUNDARIES OF R578 A-E (WMX) (WI 25NM) IS ESTABLISHED BETWEEN 4500FT AMSL AND 8500FT AMSL (CURRENT BASE). RELEVANT FREQUENCY IS BRISBANE CENTRE 125.7MHZ. WHEN R578 A-E ARE ACTIVE RAAF ATC CLASS C SERVICE APPLIES. CTC WILLIAMTOWN APCH SEE ERSA AND NOTAM FOR HOURS. FURTHER INFO REFER AIC H13/09 AVBL FM AVFAX CODE 81547 AND AIRSERVICES WEBSITE Airservices Australia - Aeronautical Information Package (AIP) CONTROLLING AUTHORITY: AIRSERVICES AUSTRALIA LOWER LIMIT: 4500FT UPPER LIMIT: 8500FT FROM 11 100630 TO PERM It was the bit about class C service applies that made me decide that going inland keeps me out of trouble. You guys may well be right though as the Notam and the associated AIC H13/09 didnt clarify it for me. (details here if anyone wants to try and decipher whether we can or cant enter) https://www.airservicesaustralia.com.au/publications/current/sup/a9-h13.pdf It was the para under section 2, part of which says "When R578 is active, the new Class E airspace will be subsumed by that Restricted Area as is the case with other restricted areas and Class C Air Traffic Control (ATC) services will be provided by the Department of Defence (Defence) at Williamtown." that led me to think perhaps best to stay away. Maybe Mazda, or one of the more knowledgable can lets us know what they think? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracktop Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Doesn't that just mean that if the restricted area is activated then it is a no go. But if it is deactivated then transit is possible/ allowable? Mostly it is deactivated. The area is CTAFR at weekends with a 30 min notice ( via radio) to activate ( ie leave now , do not pass GO do not collect $200) So my guess is, that's why you need clearance for the coast route Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Not sure if I've missed something here but, if the military CTR is active, then it is controlled airspace & you need a PPL to use the coastal route. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracktop Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 If it is active is PPL even allowed ?? edit Maybe I suppose so RPT can still operate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Thanks Andy. You're right. I remember reading that now. I need to get the new chart. It's such a minefield - I wish we had simple guidelines and rules. Even with all the experience on this forum, we have conflicting opinions on such an important coastal route. I'll have to get the definitive answer. Cheers, Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Military control zones are classified as Class C, so if the zone is active the requirement is the same as for flying in Sydney or Canberra, including a transponder. That applies for the coastal route if Willy is active. There is a phone number in the PRD section of ERSA, it could be worthwile phoning them in advance if you don't have a transponder to see if they would allow you to fly through, I can't answer that one. There is usually quite a lengthy "stand down" period over Christmas, it most likely won't be active but I can't guarantee that! It's true the that Class E has now been lowered. The inland lane is OCTA with no clearance or transponder requirement. Yes if you have a PPL and transponder, if the zone is active you can request clearance to track via the coastal lane, or you could request direct tracking - they may or may not give it to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Am heading to YARM Wed to visit mum and stay until either thurs lunch or Friday AM depending on Weather. Then Evans via Glen Innes is the plan returning YCAB sat/Sun. Hopefully we will get some settled weather this week- Have done 17 hrs over the break but none of it in great conditions.Weather is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Oh, if you do go via the Willy inland lane, Maitland is quite close if you do decide to drop in there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracktop Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Mazda Why do you need long ones for slow ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JG3 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 I flew 'Willy Coastal' south to north in a RA aircraft without transponder last May. In touch with the tower all the way and he gave clearance, but instructed to hold for about 10 minutes while departing military traffic cleared. Radio procedure was very 'clipped' and brisk and difficult for me to catch, so lots of "..say again.." from me. The operator was impatient, being used to pilots practiced in such procedures - seemed to me that he enjoyed deliberately embarassing an amateur..... To do it again I would announce right up front as follows, "....I'm and amateur and a bushy, and not practiced with your procedures. Please be patient with me and speak slowly and clearly, and then I'll do exactly as you instruct...." Or I'd go the inland route. So busy and tense trying to get the procedures right that no time to enjoy the very ordinary coastal scenery anyhow..... Just my experience....... JG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 So, the question of using GA transit lanes for Mil Control Zones is a greater one than just the Willy coastal, Among others, Nowra has the same issue and apparently the same type of control requirements according to the ERSA Nowra FAC . Perhaps as Slarti suggested its best we get a definitive answer from the RAA team. That said, my approach, that is treat it when active as though its class C and because I'm RAA without the PPL addons....avoid it like the plague...wont see me being the basis for a rant in the first few pages of the monthly mag (at least for that type of transgression) Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 JG3, Good on you. I would also advocate making a slight stand to the controller. I know they are busy and all that, but if you tell them "Oi! Talk slower or I shall have to keep asking for repeats." they may oblige you and appreciate your side of the story. Avoiding the situation is not neceserally good. One day you may be forced in the situation and this is a non-critial place to "cut your teeth" and learn how to get the message accross to the other person to be more patient. I am going to call the RAA and ask them for their interpritation of the rules WRT Willi' I'll keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Andy, there is a difference between Williamtown & Nowra indicated in ERSA.Williamtown states: Civil VFR aircraft must contact Willy clearance delivery................ Nowra states: A GA lane is established for VFR transit............. Therein lies the difference. Cheers Dexter Sorry Dexter, I don't see it that way, please read 8.b of the Nowra FAC. In effect it says that when Nowra mil ctr and R420 are active VFR Aircraft must contact Nowra approach for a clearance to transit restricted airspace. From that I conclude that it is in no way different, and is the reason for seeking clarity from the RAA team. Anyway, the benefit of these forums is that we all get to learn. Some of us have been avoiding and others have been using. Either way one group of us has been wrong and this way we get clarity without the usual "please explain" that we in RAA go out of our way to avoid as the side effects of those "please explain" may well work to erode our existing privileges. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Ok folks. Just got off the "dog and bone" with Mick Pool. Here is the low down - I hope nothing is lost in translation. Williamtown - Most millitary places are closed until mid Januray. The airforce will NOT give forecasts of the restriced area being active or not because of operational requirements. Fair enough. They DO give 24 hours notice via NOTAM if it is to be active - so "I" can check tomorrow for Thursday's status. If, for reasons unknown, they need to activate it they will broadcast it on the area frequency with as much time as possible, giving any planes in the area time to get out. Now, when it is NOT active, we ARE allowed to fly through there with CTAF-R requirements. That being said, I mean the main tower frequency, NOT clearance delivery. It may be nice to check with them, but the tower should know what is going on - sorry I didn't 100% clarify that point. So: Tomorrow, I check the notam for Willi' and see if the RESTRICTED area is going to be active or not. If not, I am pretty well ok to plan the flight through willi' zone - remaining below the E airspace ofcourse. This means I may actually fly up over the highway. Wanted to do that for a while. Anyway, that is what I was told. Mick is happy for people to call him, but I would ask you hold off as he is en-route to Temora to talk about the Natfly and it would not be nice to annoy him while he is busy with that. Bye for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Thanks FD - sort of. I'm afraid you've confirmed all the bits we already knew. The important point is whether or not we're allowed to use the transit lane when it is activated. The 24 hours notice cannot be relied upon. The Notam always says "OTHER TIMES MAY BE ACTIVATED WITH SHORT NOTICE. PILOT RESPONSIBILITY TO CK AND MNT STS." As you say - they will broadcast on tower freq, which you are already on because it's CTAF® when deactivated. If Mick is just driving, he's got nothing else to do but talk on the phone. Let's all call him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Slarti, not quite driving. Well, ok, but at a very high altitude. <nudge nudge, wink wink> My reading it, we were not clear on what I said. There was debate on what we could/not do when it was in-active. Anyway, I shall follow it up later - as I said: I do not want to bother him with this at this point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Just before christmas i recieved a little mail out from CASA about changes to airspace at Willy (Class E airspace). suggest you check out. AIP MAP effective 19 November'09 Notams for R578,WLM and B FIR AIC H13/099. These changes may affect those who can overfly Willy., and not transit via the lanes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Thanks Ozzie. I had checked out the changes (but kinda forgot) and have just reread the AIC. The new Class E coincides with R578 A-E and only 4500 - 8500 AMSL. When Willy CTR is activated, the new Class E is subsumed. The whole thing (surface and up) goes to the rules for Mil CTR, which are the same as Class C except where "otherwise advised". The giveaway is point 1 in the FAC. Civil VFR ACFT must contact Willy Clearance Delivery 130.35 to advise FLT details and obtain SSR code before entering WLM restricted areas. SSR code being the show-stopper. So it would appear that Madza is right (quelle surprise!). We shoudn't be going through there when Willy is ACT. I think I speak for everyone when I say "Bugger". Time to finish that PPL (the $1,000 nav to tick off Class D set me back a bit). Oh and FD - Willy is active today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracktop Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I guess there are 2 things to consider that are being discussed from what I can see 1 - Willy CTR which needs to be avoided mid week by us (at present ) 2 - R587 which surrounds Willy lower level and has a ctafr ceiling of 4500ft while R587 is deactivated. So the inland lane becomes much wider and has a higher ceiling ( safer and easier and shorter (- you can track back to the coast above Nelsons Bay)) while R587 is deactivated Have I got that right or have I missed something ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracktop Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Oh and FD - Willy is active today. I've been up this morning and rung on 5 different occasions during the morning and it has been deactivated each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 My bad. Thanks Ray - I misread the Notam. 1001102100 TO 1001111100 1001112100 TO 1001121100 1001122100 TO 1001131100 1001132100 TO 1001141100 1001142100 TO 1001150500 CTR ACT OTHER TIMES MAY BE ACTIVATED WITH SHORT NOTICE. PILOT RESPONSIBILITY TO CK AND MNT STS. FROM 01 102100 TO 01 150500 I saw CTR ACT and didn't check further. They are ACT times. This one says that it is deactivated until the morning of 11/1. CTR DEACTIVATED OTHER TIMES MAY BE ACTIVATED WITH SHORT NOTICE. PILOT RESPONSIBILITY TO CK AND MNT STS. FROM 12 240500 TO 01 102100 Flying through while deactivated has only had a ceiling change. Now 4500 instead of 8500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 .. and a current PPL, and an approved engine, and a current medical..... Then you're good to go. This is just my take on what I've read. I've been wrong before - according to several of my wives. Some days I couldn't obfuscate my way out of a wet paper bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 ....I think I speak for everyone when I say "Bugger".Time to finish that PPL (the $1,000 nav to tick off Class D set me back a bit).... But not as expensive as:- 1) swap out altimiter to TSO'd one ( and possibly anything else that hangs off the static pressure line such as the VSI and or any Althold Autopilots etc) 2) Buy transponder and encoder and other fluff, have it installed and 3) have avionics LAME check all that stuff initially and thereafter every 2 years. In fact I bet that 5 to 10 times that is a more realistic cost over 5 years Me, I'll keep using the inland route for $0 for now due to lack of $ready at the moment and hope that one day maybe we'll get the training and access to controlled airspace, all the while thanking the casa gods that 99.999% of Australians Airspace under 10kft is class G its just that the last0.001% would seem to be the most desirable. In some regards, when put like that, I suppose those calling for "leave things as they are" may have a valid point except that 90+% of the australian population probably live in that 0.001% Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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