Sapphire

I am glad to see someone concerned about the result of their mechanical endevours. Over the last few years I have had two a/c and two sailboats and in the course have inspected many home maintained vehicles. Many are operated with major structural, electical, fuel system and design defects. My latest accusition has miles of wiring added over 30 years by various owners, many connections held together with the twist of two wires and some peeling electrical tape. The fact that only the occasional plane falls out of the sky is more good luck than good maintainance.

MM, I was there last year. Have to book a year in advance to get close accomodation. The university in Appleton has accomodation which was not fully booked even during the show. A bus will take you from the uni to Oshkosh and back for $50. Time about one hour. Prices at the uni include a fantastic breakfast. Go before you can't go.

Who is we-take a vote.

I considered turning from into wind to to downwind was entering a new mass of air. Can't discuss further now as I am crewing on a sail boat going up the Barrier Reef for two weeks. If anyone wants to discuss sharks and seaweed, I'll be avaiable. Ask Facthunter about being assimilated, though he is still in euphoria.

Make correction to above statement "turning into wind". Change "turning from into wind to downwind"

I thought you would conclude more professionally. There is no useful substance there.

Suprisingly a simple turn into wind and downwind has so much unresolved debate in official quarters. I think the effects of inertia are most evident in a fast aerobatic type a/c doing quick turns in a strong wind. The case example given in one of the references is a plane doing just that, turning into wind, stalling and crashing. A crop duster pilot recounts similar scary experiences. As far as being assimilated Nev, if Seven of Nine [part Borg] does it, you will be lying down with stars in your eyes, tongue hanging out, and begging for more. She is very skillful and sexy.

How do you explain away the inertial effects Mr Nev? Don't say there are none or you will be assimilated.

[qThey point out that if you suddenly turn round so the wind is behind you, the aircraft will not instantly accelerate to a groundspeed of 110kts (80+30). It is a heavy chunk of metal which has inertia, so it will take time to accelerate from 50 to 110 knots, and during this time the tailwind will cause it to lose airspeed and lift. This explanation seems logical, but it has a major flaw. It’s based on the belief that groundspeed plays a part in the physics and aerodynamics of a body that is totally supported by the air. It doesn’t The first word in the article above "They" are CASA and some other experts. The writer doesnt agree with them and his arguement is very flawed. If you read that artical he explains it away with aerodynamics. We are taking about inertial effects which are in addition to aerodynamic effects. CASA is right on this one.

You guys have me pumping the keys tonight. Ground speed adjust's itself - You are flying to a constant IAS of say 100 kts. Your ground speed becomes a figure based on wind velocity and density height and that 100kt IAS It simply"adjusts itself" to a figure based on those parameters. Eliminate the term "adjusts itself" if you find that confusing. Ground speed adjusts itself for density height-explained above. Density height, wind velocity, IAS are parameters which affect ground speed. Increase the density height you increase the TAS which increases your ground speed [provided you maintain a constant IAS] Turning into wind inhibits the stall-if you are the "inertia" believer as CASA is in the links provided in other recent posts in this thread, then turning from a high ground speed down wind into a head wind gives you more lift. Say you are going downwind at 120kt ground speed and you turn into a 20 kt headwind. Now momentarily you are doing almost 120 kts into a 2o kt headwind and inertia is allowing that. With your power setting constant the plane will slow down to 100kts ground speed and you will loose that initial extra lift. True airspeed is not just how fast you are going in relation to the air around you-not true and never said it. Find it in my post and I'll eat the words.

Just read it and it supports my arguement. Inertia is what can kill you in a downwind turn because you loose speed in relation to the air around you. It takes time to move an a/c to it's downwind ground speed. The effect is more evident in a heavy inertia ridden a/c such as a heavily loaded crop duster. I withdraw my statement above it has little impact on day to day flying-the impact can be enormous.

MM, my example showed diferent relationships of ground speed and IAS. When flying with visual reference to airspeed, you look at your ASI to get IAS. Ground speed automatically adjusts itself depending on wind conditions and density height. The effect I described does theoretically happen but has little impact on day to day flying. If you are say just about to stall and turn into wind, that would inhibit the stall while turning downwind would tend to induce a stall. Further to Turboplanner's comment I fly a plane by ground speed. Of course yes, to navigate a plane I use ground speed, to keep it in the air I use IAS. There are several airspeeds-indicated air speed which is just dynamic pressure calibrated into airspeed numbers and does not exactly tell you how fast you are going except at sea level 15 deg C. 1013.2 mb. Calibrated airspeed which is indicated airspeed corrected for instrument errors. True air speed is how fast you are going in relation to the air around you, and ground speed which tells you how fast you are going relative to the ground. At any one time you are flying four different airspeeds and each gives you different information.

Sorry, cant help you.

Metalman, I'll bet you a box of welding rods [ss] I am right under conditions I already explained. You turn into wind and once established straight and level your IAS is comfortably the same. However your ground speed changes, as you said, and becomes slower. So you are changing your speed relative to the ground when turning into a headwind [or tail wind as well]. If you tried to maintain your same ground speed then your IAS would change [by changing power] See the relationship? Lets look at it with numbers. You have a ground speed of 100 kts and you turn into wind and now you have a ground speed of 80 knots and so in relation to the ground you have slowed down. But he a/c has inertia [look it up]. It will not slow down instantly. That is where you IAS increases just for a few seconds. Not much and other errors affecting the accuracy of the asi may mask it [especially if the turn has a little slip in it] Gliding books discuss this effect in relation to entering thermals and changes in wind velocity. Your explanation doesn't relate to anything I wrote.

I've seen grossly overweight in critical situations and pushing up daisies.

You will always have ground speed until the a/c stops????????????????

Ever heard of inertia? We are talking about momentary effects which in very light a/c is small. In doing a 180 deg turn power off, I would more consider a direction to turn that puts me in best position for a landing. Also, I would prefer a turn downwind initially at a higher altitude that allows a turn into wind onto final. Again, lot depends on direction of wind in relation to airfield and how high you are. A lot to consider in your 1 sec reaction thingo.

*serious and no spoof*-learn your basic principles of flight.

The way I understand it if you turn to downwind you create an immediate decrease in lift as your IAS will drop off. Then the plane is accelerated by trading off some height and you achive same IAS and same lift. Net result is less time in the air. Turning into wind is the opposite. Your IAS increases, and use that to stay in the air longer. However, turning into wind decreases your ground speed and turning downwind increases your ground speed. The one into wind will help you avoid a stall and allow a tighter turn. The wind gradient into wind will go against you compared to downwind. Work that all out in your one second reaction time.

There is lots in the reaction time advantage. As you are climbing you can concentrate on your glide angle distance, phyche yourself up with confidence and pick a safe point to kill the power. Try the same while concentrating on the radio with your eyes glued to multiple conflicting traffic. The instant fright in some pilots would put them near stall requiring hundreds of feet to get best L/D speed, if that is even known. By then the turn back to the airfield hasn't even started and the opportunity lost.

My Sapphire had no engines running on one side and none on the other-thank god for the one in the middle.

A pilot who leaves no room for error is eventually a dead pilot. A talented pilot hangs around uneventfully for a long time.

Strange things go on in a/c. Only when there is an accident is the truth learned.

I'am sure she got more "flying lessons" that night.

You practice your stick control in a stimulator.