Flying Binghi
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Posts posted by Flying Binghi
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On 07/09/2022 at 10:57 PM, onetrack said:
Just to correct something - the research were first posted by call-sign onetrack
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Putting some diversions up eh.
Seems call-sign Ian is trying to run away from my prior questions with a subject that is new to him…😄
1 hour ago, Ian said:Lead in water needs to remain soluble, however aqueuas lead is poorly soluble…
I were involved in this very same debate several years ago in pprune. Think it were call-sign Jabbawoky were pushing this new ‘fuel’ from gami…😉
Anyway, slight diversion to comprehending just what is in sea spray, or just a couple of em anyway…
If yer believes Wikipedia:
“…Viruses, bacteria, and plankton are ubiquitous in sea water, and this biodiversity is reflected in the composition of sea spray…”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_spray
….Yeah… don’t breath in sea spray - or if yer a fish don’t eat that stuff, because as it moves up the food chain the heavy metals, leads one of em, accumulates and then…🤨
Anyway, How goes the answers to my questions call sign Ian..🙂
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2 hours ago, octave said:
You seem to have misinterpreted my comment. Your question is would I ban naturally occurring sources of lead. Cleary that is a nonsense proposition I refer you to what I actually said.
Not at all. You were commenting about modifying lead exposure via removing a particular source. Therefor, by not going to the beach you are removing a source of lead exposure.
2 hours ago, octave said:The point is you obviously cannot ban naturally occurring sources of lead but you can have some control over lead additives.
You have compleat control over your exposure to ‘natural’ sources of lead - don’t go to the beach. Don’t eat food grown in leaded soils - which is most of Australia. Etc…
2 hours ago, octave said:I can remember the fuss leading up to the phasing out of leaded fuel vehicles
So, he didn’t know where to buy the little can of wynnes additive..🤔
I don’t recall much of a fuss about the lead phase out - the cancer issue relating to the unleaded aromatics, well, thats another story.
New cars were coming out with unleaded engines at the time and most of Australia’s car fleet turns over in about ten years… Aviation fleet turn over, well, thats another story…
2 hours ago, octave said:Any search on the internet will show numerous groups opposing GA airports on the grounds of noise and lead pollution. Noise is more difficult but the lead has a clear solution.
So you suggest we just roll over and die, eh..🤨 I should take the blame, eh..🤨
Why should I take on blame for something that contributes 1/16 of a poofteenth of sweet-feck-all of what is nowadays in reality a minor issue ?
When we get to hear back from call-sign Ian trying to explain why the answers to my questions are a little ‘lacking’, then we can cover it some more.
What all-ways makes me feel silly in hind-site if when I realise I’d lost my backbone over an issue. If you read the so-called research Ian presented you will note they left out certain demographics - Why? They try to blame lead for the violence of certain ‘demographics’ on lead exposure, when they should be looking at the destruction of the family values of those groups.
😑
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3 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:
I blame the specialists themselves and the govt which pays the bills for the situation. Specialists are the only trade where the existing practitioners can decide that they don't want any new entrants. Guess what? they all get millions a year.
Sounds like a conspiracy…..😉
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6 hours ago, octave said:
The phasing out of lead in car fuel in Australia had a significant effect on lead levels.
How much of a problem is air-borne lead in Australia?
"The amount of lead in Australia's air has decreased significantly since the introduction of unleaded petrol in 1986. Before the phase-out of leaded petrol, which began in 1993, the national air quality standard for lead was regularly exceeded in urban environments. Levels are now less than 10 per cent of the national annual standard of 0.5 micrograms per cubic metre of air.
Lead levels remain high in some regional towns with large industrial point sources (such as lead smelters), and levels may exceed the national standards in these areas."
I accept that there are many fewer aircraft than cars but I cant see that this justifies exemptions and I would imagine that the general public would think this also.
BF As far as I can see your argument is that environmental sources of lead exposure are greater than the exposure from aircraft. This may generally be true although location may be relevant. Since lead is a cumulative toxin, it does not make much sense to say since we have exposure from source A and source B and that source A is is greater than source B so lets have both.
Some sources of lead exposure are inevitable but the important thing is to keep lead levels below the recommended levels. It is surely sensible to control the sources we can control.
The discussion is not about leaded petrol cars as such. As I have already covered, 99.999% of leaded petrol engines are now gone. And keep in mind that most of the leaded petrol cars were driven many times a week. Most piston engined aircraft in Oz don’t fly much at all - a lot of the charter ops are done with no-lead jet-A turbines or jets.
“Source A, B…”… There is lead in sea spray. Are you suggesting that we ban going to the beach? Any adult who believes that nil lead is the only acceptable level would never take a child within miles of the sea side. Or creeks, or vegetables, or……
Where do you stop…
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OKaaay…. Lets try again. Ian, reference the research paper under discussion:
* The actual locations of the airports - How can I identify which airports are referenced ?
* The size of the airports.
* The actual locations of the various groups re distance from airport. Were they all located near one airport, or were they spread around.
* The locations of toxic waste dumps. To add to my comments - Airports because of their size and late arrival to City/town development tend to end up in the old dump area or low lying swamp area etc, or have heavy industry located around them.
* And yet. The other paper I referenced, whilst talking housing, does not mention airports.
Ian, as you seem to have access to all this extra info, perhaps you can answer the actual points I raised..🙂
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4 hours ago, Ian said:
Given your willingness to contest the vast majority of climate change research your definition of crap research could be considered somewhat arbitrary. When reading research papers, especially ones from good sites and journals check the bibliography.
Seems you don’t know of the ‘crisis’ in medical research. Over 70% of medical research papers have been found to be crap.
With those odds I probably didn’t even need to read the research paper to be confident of giving it the ‘crap’ rating…🤨
4 hours ago, Ian said:The research appears reasonable and is based on the following
All and good, though does not answer the points I raised:
* The actual locations of the airports - How can I identify which airports are referenced ?
* The size of the airports.
* The actual locations of the various groups re distance from airport. Were they all located near one airport, or were they spread around.
* The locations of toxic waste dumps. To add to my comments - Airports because of their size and late arrival to City/town development tend to end up in the old dump area or low lying swamp area etc, or have heavy industry located around them.
* And yet. The other paper I referenced, whilst talking housing, does not mention airports.
Ian, as you seem to have access to all this extra info, perhaps you can answer the actual points I raised..🙂
4 hours ago, Ian said:This is bad because there's no safe level for lead exposure, only levels which are tolerable because we've spread it around so much.
And yet, as the Oz government data shows - there is natural lead everywhere in the environment - in the food we eat, in the creeks we swim in.
The only way to get a nil exposure to environmental lead would to be locked up in a ‘safe room’.
My argument has been from the get-go, that Aviation lead in Australia adds nothing of concern to the lead exposure that people are already getting naturally.
🙂
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18 minutes ago, Ian said:
Angel Flight is a charitable service that operates successfully already and people are dealing with these issues already. It's a volunteer service which covers fuel costs etc.
Do you help an old lady across the road or walk away because of the fear of liability. It's your choice.
Personally I also think that it should be the choice of the passenger as to the aircraft and pilot they travel with.
I don’t need to be wearing an Angel Flight cap when I help the old lady across the road.
If yer keen why not just put the word out to a few country Dr’s that your aircraft is available as a free taxi service..🙂
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22 hours ago, onetrack said:
More guesswork from the FB ....
OK, I’ve had a brief bit of a look-see and consideration...🤔 …..It’s Crap research.
Apparently the airports they claim to base the research on are not actually listed. Whilst the big airports can be roughly defined on the research paper Wake county map, most cannot. The other county’s referenced in the paper have no map.
Doing a bit of goggle maps correlating to the research paper map of Wake county some ‘airports’ appear to be little more then ‘one hanger’ bush strips.
I note, of the 1267 children included in the research that they claim are within 500 metres of an airport they do not say how many at each airport. For all we know the 1267 kids are all at one location. The same for the 1000, 1500, and 2000+ distances - all the children could be at one location for all we know, right on top of the old toxic waste dump.
Whilst housing gets a mention, there is no mention of toxic waste issues. A big issue in North Carolina apparently. Are any of these toxic waste sites located near the research paper reference airports?
A read of a child lead research paper reference North Carolina makes no mention of airports. Seems there are other issues:
“..Mothers of the 63.5% of children (402,002 of 633,159) linked to a blood lead test result were disproportionately young, Hispanic, Black, American Indian, or on Medicaid…”
🤨
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Well intentioned, though…
I’m guessing when somebody wants to travel re medical issues they wants to get there by a set time.
A pilot aborting due WX or unserviceability is fair enuf, though the ‘patient’ may be a little unwell and stressing and noting they could have driven there the day before.
A few aborts and suddenly all pilots get a bad reputation.
Imagine if the sick pax throws a fit or dies during the flight - Pilot liable ?
As I say, well intentioned, though probably best kept clear of.
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Furthering my research on the onetrack posting.
I note reference to North Carolina in the research. For one thing NC has a lot of current and old copper mines which means…🤔 …including todays related industry’s they have an interest in monitoring lead:
“…In May 2016, a North Carolina Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program (NC CLPPP) epidemiologist noted clusters of elevated blood lead levels (BLL) among 16 children documented as take-home lead exposures in North Carolina’s lead surveillance system. Local lead investigators visited the homes of the children with confirmed BLLs greater than 5 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL). They found lead dust on household members’ work boots, laundry areas, car upholstery, and children’s car seats. NC CLPPP partnered with North Carolina’s Occupational and Environmental Epidemiology Branch (OEEB), which houses the Adult Blood Lead Surveillance (ABLES) program. Through this partnership, NC CLPPP determined that the children’s exposures were linked to employees of two workplaces: a lead oxide manufacturer with 26 current employees and a battery manufacturer with over 400 employees. As the employees resided in multiple counties, the investigation crossed many jurisdictional boundaries…”
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/programs/nc.htm
🤔… I don’t see any mention of aircraft ?
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4 minutes ago, Ian said:
Yup, it all a conspiracy, lead's good for you, climate change is a mass hysteria phenomenon and those Government types are alien reptiles and they're covering up the coming invasion. If it's too warm the planet won't be suitable anymore.
Hmmm… please do point to the posts referring to all that...🤔
7 minutes ago, Ian said:I think that you're in the position that the science is still out on what reasonable lead levels are even though Government health bodies have been consistently lowering the reasonable thresholds
And, yet. There are all them natural sources referenced in the gov.au.edu web site I linked to…🤫
Perhaps Ian thinks they will be closing down the umpteen millions of geothermal vents around the world. No more drinking bore water or eating fish caught outer creeks and so on…🙂
As I’ve said before, like every thing in life, its the dose that matters.
🙂
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29 minutes ago, Ian said:
You're as bad FB just believing stuff, have you had it measured? 😉
Yer never know. I see he’s got the tail wheel on the wrong end of the aircraft…😃
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8 hours ago, onetrack said:
More guesswork from the FB ....
Hmmm… Sometimes if yer want to get the ‘correct’ result yer just have to employ the ‘correct’ researchers. Lets have a brief look-see…
Via the onetrack link:
“…Residence in poor and minority neighborhoods was also associated with elevated lead levels. In contrast, recently constructed housing units were associated with decreased mean lead levels…”
..”minority neighbourhoods”. Hmmm… Perhaps we need to have a look-see at what else these researchers are up to….
“…Racial residential segregation has been associated with preterm birth. Few studies have examined mediating pathways, in part because, with binary outcomes, indirect effects estimated from multiplicative models generally lack causal interpretation. We develop a method to estimate additive-scale natural direct and indirect effects from logistic regression. We then evaluate whether segregation operates through poor-quality built environment to affect preterm…”. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24681575/
Looking at the research I guess non-‘whites’ must live in old houses. Likely next to an old industrial estate, that’s usually located next to the ‘airport’. Nothing like kids playing in the dirt of an old industrial estate when they could be playing in the dirt of a new housing development out in the hills…
I guess them bad bad whites flying around in their little airplanes are to blame…🤨
onetrack, I’m gunna have a further look-see at this research. I’d like to define just which ‘airports’ they used and have a look at the surrounding location.
🙂
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44 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:
I grew up in Broken Hill and don’t believe I was intellectually impaired. But anyone living alongside a major road in our cities would have ingested far more lead than I did.
Thats the thing, even if there were never a mine at Broken Hill there would still be a lead rich soil via the natural weathering.
Having a look-see at the lead deposits map of Oz it is every where. Lead gets spread around via dust storms, via bush fires, via creeks, and via ground water. Those who think we can have a nil lead environment in Oz are fooling themselves.
Lead from aviation is not even registering on the natural background levels.
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2 hours ago, Ian said:
OK, there are two schools of thought.
- One which thinks that climate change is a conspiracy and soon everyone will wake up and it will be business at usual. Given that is the case there's not much point in participating in this thread because it's nonsense.
- The other thinks that climate change is real enough that significant changes are coming and things like travel will have to demonstrate that they're carbon neutral in some way shape or form.
Things like Macron banning private jets is just a populist move that makes people feel like they're doing something. Banning them unless they're carbon neutral makes more sense.
At some point I suspect that we'll be forced to fuel our planes with a carbon neutral fuel, by considering what the options are hopefully we can make some sensible decisions going forward. Even if that means investing in canola farms of a bit of bioengineering to make better biofuels. (it has one of the lowest cloud points of the common vegetable oil)
If you want to talk about coral reefs and bleaching I suggest that you reach out to a couple of scientists who specialise in that area. Their email addresses are on the page. If they agree with your point of view I'll buy you a beer 😉
https://www.aims.gov.au/research-topics/environmental-issues/coral-bleaching/coral-bleaching-events
“…Two schools of thought…”
🤨
Ian, can I recommend you actually study the subject…🙂
“…the former science advisor to the Barack Obama administration is laying waste to claims that rampant global warming is a death sentence for humanity. Physicist Steve Koonin, former U.S. under secretary for science, and the director of the Center for Urban Science and Progress at New York University, has released a new book entitled Unsettled: What Climate Science Tells Us, What It Doesn’t, and Why It Matters.
Although Dr. Koonin firmly believes that the Earth is warming and that humankind has something to do with it…”
https://thenewamerican.com/former-obama-science-advisor-takes-an-axe-to-climate-emergency-narrative/
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2 hours ago, Ian said:
Again rather than just channelling, I'll give you a couple of references and a quote.
https://qz.com/2158594/do-you-live-near-enough-to-a-small-airport-to-have-lead-exposure/
In the last 100 or so years atmospheric lead levels increased by a factor of 200 over baseline levels.
Also any the vast majority of the lead that we get from the oceans we put there.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1417370111
https://www.science.org/content/article/3d-maps-reveal-lead-laced-ocean
There's a nice little too that might by of help https://gprivate.com/60r5c
Hmmm… Does not my quote say “the Oz environment”, and to be doubly sure I mention “in Australia”…😑
I’ll leave the yanks to work out their aviation.
Re the links: I suppose if you give me 300 million dollars, with the promise of more to come, to go sail around the world and identify pollution in the worlds oceans - Well, I’ll find pollution…😄
Back with Australia:
“…The main lead mineral is galena (PbS), which contains 86.6% lead by mass. Cerussite (PbCO3) and anglesite (PbSO4) commonly occur in the near-surface weathered or oxidised zone of lead orebodies.
Lead deposits form from hot, aqueous (or hydrothermal) fluids generated within the earth. These fluids flow along sub-surface fractures, where galena and other minerals may be deposited to form vein deposits. Fluid flow can also occur in aquifers, and in limestone, galena and other ore minerals can precipitate in cavities to form rich but patchy deposits. Some fluids may reach the ocean floor in areas of underwater volcanic activity to form 'volcanogenic' deposits. Examples of this last type of deposit are presently forming under the ocean off Papua New Guinea, Canada and elsewhere in the world. Other fluids may escape to the surface into shallow seas, and, under suitable conditions, lead-zinc-silver deposits may form.
For thousands of millions of years, deposits have been forming in these manners, and may eventually be exposed at the surface following weathering and erosion. Some are completely eroded away and may be recycled by natural processes into the earth. Partially eroded deposits exposed at the surface were relatively easily discovered; examples include Broken Hill in 1883 and Mt Isa in 1923. These deposits formed the basis of Australia's lead-zinc silver mining industry…”
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4 hours ago, Ian said:
While you might believe this it isn't what most of the scientific community believe. Also public opinion is also moving and accepting the fact that it is an issue. It would be good if you could be convinced by research, facts, published paper and journals but you're making a stand for your beliefs. I get it, I just don't do facebook, brietbart etc as I think they're nonsense. I know that you would like us believe differently however it's just a belief.
The future will entail
- Lower carbon emissions
- Lower methan emissions
- Taxes on emission or equivalent like an emissions market.
- Significant reductions in fossil fuel
- Alternative energy technologies
Somehow GA needs to dovetail into this framework. There have been some STCs for pure ethanol https://www.flightglobal.com/corn-to-run-can-ethanol-be-used-as-a-clean-alternative/71449.article so the whole zero carbon approach isn't a nail in the coffin of air travel or GA, it just needs a bit of innovation. I'd like to see some biodiesel powered planes funded by Government grants as well.
But this is just my opinion 🙂 But I'd be willing to put a wager on it, as I said investment is all about timing.
…and yet, not long ago I were ridiculed for saying the Barrier Reef is healthy after the so-called scientists said it were done for.
Where’s the evidence I asked… Nothing, …..I should just ‘believe’…🤨
😑
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4 hours ago, facthunter said:
The Bromine additive used to remove the Lead from engines is just as much a problem. It's the right thing to responsibly do, but there are still other sources of lead contamination that need to be tidied up. Nev
?
Isn’t that the stuff yer get in Himalayan table salt ?
I would suggest you don’t bath in avgas. Apart from that, if yer believe wikipedia:
“…it now appears that bromine is an essential trace element in humans…”
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4 hours ago, Ian said:
Personally I'd rather see lead phased out as soon as possible. Even relatively small amounts show an impact on children's IQs. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8162884/
Given the choice I'd ban it tomorrow, I think that its continued use is negligent to the point of being criminal. As an industry aviation would deal with it.
While lead IQ relationships are reasonably easy to measure a more insidious linkage relates to violent crime and antisocial activities. All in all it's a bad news story and a sucking chest wound on the industry.
“…violent crime and antisocial activities…”
Criky!!! I didn’t realise the local leaded avgas burning airport had such a collection of villains………..…🤔……
… I’m going to look at the refuelling truck driver in a whole new light..😄
I see sea spray has lead in it. That would explain why surfers are so dumb…😄
As always - its the DOSE that matters. If yer living next to an old lead mine be concerned. Apart from that there’s a lot more gunna kill yer or stupefy you.
I see there is a new term out there - Type 3 diabetes. Go stupid in old age all thanks to the high sugar content of modern food…🤨
Compared to what’s naturally in the Oz environment the amount of lead aviation puts out in Australia is 1/16 of a poofteenth of sweet f-all.
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The claims of clean plugs and less valve stick sound good, but, let the crash test dummies try it out.
We have a cheaper Av fuel in Oz now. Why rush.
The yanks will ‘refine’ the concept and ultimately make the fuel cheaper as there is more competition. Ten years from now is the go…🙂
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12 hours ago, Ian said:
All these things are possible as long as they're carbon neutral. But I can't see coal having any redeeming values in the future. The Government has thrown billions in subsidies toward lower emission coal and it's all failed. They could have built a nuclear power plant in the money that they gave away.
That's the thing about investment, it's all about the timing. As Kerry Packer said, its easy, buy low, sell high. Maybe if we had politicians with a bit of vision pretending that climate change wasn't an issue things may have been different.
If they actually start to make all vehicles carbon neutral maybe engines like this will become back in fashion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiberson_A-1020 The efficiency was 0.37 lb. per h.p. which is about equivalent to the toyota prius engine. Imagine what it could do with a bit of turbocharging and modern fuel injection.
Given the differential between boats and planes, maybe these might become more popular. I think that they're classed as boats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle
“…pretending that climate change wasn't an issue…”
‘Climate change’ is not a Real issue. It is an over blown hysteria.
I remember a while back there were a thread here about the Barrier Reef being all damaged and under attack from ‘climate change’. I argued that it weren’t.
I see now the latest scientific report says the reef is the healthiest its ever been since it were first monitored… Oh dear, hysteria what.…..🙂
Apparently our dams were never going to fill again and we needed to build all them water purifying plants… Oh dear, hysteria what….🙂
The science said twenty years ago that by now the children will not know what snow is… Oh dear, hysteria what…🙂
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Looks like it will be Ok. Clean plugs a plus.
Noting his comments on refinery mods it will probably take 10 years or so before we get it in Oz - unless direct from the USA.
I see mention of a 90c a gallon price increase for it..😬
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1 hour ago, Ian said:
It would be nice to get a good idea of the diesel auto engine conversions out there. We might all be running on ethanol or biodiesel soon as the most cost effective solutions. The advantage of diesel is the efficiency and energy density of the fuels.
Both ethanol and biodiesel are pretty hard on plastic tanks though.
I made a substantial investment in a biodiesel fuel company over 20 years ago - that were back in my stupid greeny days. All gone…🤕
The smart move, once oil gets a bit more expensive and Oz has moved to nuclear power, will be to do coal to fuel conversion.
Then there is methane hydrate. China is spending big on researching it and Japan has already had their drill rigs gassing it. Once that gets going then there’s about 10,000 years supply available at the current rate of usage…😎
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Burning Off Time of the Year
in UK/Europe General Discussion
Posted
It’s not a wonder this forum has no posters - yer keep banning them…😄