Australian involvement in Comac C919

red750

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aviast

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Uhh, scary. I unfortunately just know too much about the way Chinese process their thinking, approach to problems, and the supply process to ever step foot in one.
From what I heard they imported all the engineering talent from Europe and the USA so the design should be up to western standards. A lot of components (engines, avionics) from the west too, so it's the manufacture of structures where they need to maintain good quality...
 

bexrbetter

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From what I heard they imported all the engineering talent from Europe and the USA so the design should be up to western standards.
I have no problem with Chinese standards, you'll find the top 10 engineering graduates in just about every Uni in the World are usually Chinese, and have been for a long time.

You know your house has been burgled by Chinese when you come home and find your kids homework completed, tax returns done, computer running smoothly with upgrades, and they are still trying to reverse your car out of the driveway.


A lot of components (engines, avionics) from the west too, so it's the manufacture of structures where they need to maintain good quality...
Little to do with my fears.

My Nephew, Chinese, is one of GE's Head Liason Engineers to the project btw.

I may write more in the next few days.
 

aviast

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I have no problem with Chinese standards, you'll find the top 10 engineering graduates in just about every Uni in the World are usually Chinese, and have been for a long time.
Oh, BTW I was not intending to denigrate the standards of Chinese engineers - I shouldn't have said "all" the engineering talent. What I meant was that there is more to a successful commercial aircraft design than can be picked up at university - there is a lot of "acquired knowledge" that comes from past experience - and this is what the Chinese have been importing from Europe and the USA. The outcome being that the C-919 should be a more mature design than if China had decided to learn all these lessons the hard way...
 

bexrbetter

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Yes please! I'm intrigued!
Bit busy these days but here's but one on many examples. True story. You'll have to excuse my use of reo units, I am not a builder.

An architect designs a 22 story apartment building locally here and one of the specifications is for 8 rods of reo (reinforcement bar) per meter of concrete wall for the developer.

Apartment gets built but for whatever reason later it is discovered, accidentally, that only 5 bars of reo per meter were used in the construction. Records are checked, 8 bars of reo are charged out.

In a somewhat typical arrangement, the builder has organised with the steel supplier to deliver 8 bars (per meter) with invoice of course and counted/checked by the crane gang, and then later to return 3 bars and share the money difference between them.

The building standards only require 5 bars, the building is safe and would otherwise not be known about, and 800,000 rmb is pocketed. Arbitration ensures, 500,000 is recovered.

The architect and developer were somewhat affected by the local earthquake here and wanted an extra strong building and was advertised as such, now people are living in a standard safe building, not an extra safe one.


The C919 might be a safe plane, but it won't be an extra safe plane.

When I first came to China and was visiting and working with various companies, cars were scarce, unlike now, but I noticed there was usually 3 cars parked at the offices, the owner's, sometimes the general manager, but nearly always the purchasing officer had one.

How does a purchasing officer on $200 per month (at the time) buy a car? Obvious, kickbacks from suppliers and the cheaper the crap, the larger the kickback. Worst is if there's a bunch of defective or not quite to spec parts, there's a bigger kickback to not return them, much cheaper for the manufacturer.

There is no way on this planet that some of that system isn't in effect somewhere down the considerably large outsource parts supply line for the C919, it's just entrenched into this 'every man for himself' culture.

And we won't even start on the variable and somewhat bizzare worker's personal standards, besides it's impossible to obtain a level of quality when a person has no experience of that standard of quality or how it's applied in the real world - the difference between a young western guy working on his own dirt bike/car/boat etc as a teenager, and an eastern young guy spending 24 hours per day with his face buried in a study book to get the best Uni grades possible. You will find almost every worker on the C919 has a diploma, and at the same time, dumb as fook in the real world.
 

IBob

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" - the difference between a young western guy working on his own dirt bike/car/boat etc as a teenager, and an eastern young guy spending 24 hours per day with his face buried in a study book to get the best Uni grades possible. You will find almost every worker on the C919 has a diploma, and at the same time, dumb as fook in the real world."
Odd how that works: Richard Feynman found the same thing when lecturing on physics in Brazil.
For readers here, his book is the most wonderful read: at first it felt like the voice of a 'mouthy' American, then I realised it is the voice of a (brilliant) man who never lost the child in himself. Here is the extract on Brazil:
Richard Feynman on education in Brazil
 

facthunter

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What you are talking of is corruption and it's not isolated to any particular culture. When you reverse engineer anything you are not aware of the criticality or lack of margin in sections of the design. The slightest reduction on spec for a part could cause a "catastrophic" (In engineering concepts) failure. Nev
 

IBob

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What you are talking of is corruption and it's not isolated to any particular culture. When you reverse engineer anything you are not aware of the criticality or lack of margin in sections of the design. The slightest reduction on spec for a part could cause a "catastrophic" (In engineering concepts) failure. Nev
What we also have now are a growing number of 'manufacturers' making items that they clearly have no understanding of and, in some cases, that can not possibly work. And the sheer degree of this now is increasingly bizzare: I began a list (with a new stage of my life) about 15years ago, gave up adding to it, but here is a simple example:
upload_2017-6-17_14-57-16.jpeg
If you make this of soft enough steel, the handles just bend when you first try to puncture the can. I know this because the girl at the checkout said 'I'm not supposed to say this, but don't buy that', and proceeded to demonstrate.
What boggles my mind is thinking about how many must have been made...and sent all over the world...and thrown in the rubbish...
 

Downunder

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If you make this of soft enough steel, the handles just bend when you first try to puncture the can. I know this because the girl at the checkout said 'I'm not supposed to say this, but don't buy that', and proceeded to demonstrate.
What boggles my mind is thinking about how many must have been made...and sent all over the world...and thrown in the rubbish...
That's all well and good, but I bet it was it CHEAP?......

This manufacturer probably put the original out of business by making them at a quarter of the price.
But sold 4 times as many as poeople kept buying them, looking for one that lasts....
Perhaps the "chinese" solution is to make weaker cans.....lol.