Barry Hendy Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I am contemplating getting a Pipstrel Taurus; a 2 seat self-launch motor glider, but want to be sure I fully understand all the operational and regulatory issues. First - some background: I did a fair bit of gliding in my late-teen/ university days thanks to an early introduction to gliding from my father - then use of his Grob Astir CS at Toqumwal. Having not flown much in between, I would now (some 30 years later) like to get back into gliding/flying and the idea of a motor glider seems great way to go. The idea of rigging and self launching from any RA airfiled and spending a day soaring is very attractive. The Taurus looks like very good fun. It appears RAA registration and an RAA license is the best option (I have started getting my license) - operational freedom mainly. But I suppose I would also get actively involved in GFA activity? Are there any issues with an RAA aircraft intermixing with GFA operations at an airfield for example? I live in Melbourne so would be looking for soaring sites reachable from say Lilydale - thinking mountain/slope in northern Gippsland, mountain flying over the high-country and soaring north of the mountains. Since there are no Taurus in the country, it is a little hard to judge exactly how it all works. I would be interested in any views on operations of a motor glider like this as an RAA aircraft but operating as a glider mainly, any thoughts on the Taurus etc. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastmeg2 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 MTOW and stall speed fit the bill for RAAus, but the RAAus Op's Manual probably won't cover the "engine off" aspects of flying a motor glider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 The Taurus looks like a very nice aircraft but a lot of money! The two sporting bodies, RAA and GFA, will no doubt provide lots of advice but the rule with motor gliders - albeit often observed more in the breach than in fact - is that you can't use power to fly it from one place to another cross-country on a gliding certificate. A PPL or pilot certificate will solve that. If you want to go wave soaring you will need a GFA or PPL qualification because you will be mixing it with seriously heavy metal in CTA. I'd suggest you join GFA and get some refresher training, especially spinning, even if you go on with your RA training and rego. I read an article recently about a female pilot who flew the morning glory in FNQ in a Faulke MG. Sounded fantastic!!! kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I think its a shame there is not more Motorgliding encouraged within Ra-Aus... perhaps a GFA rating? I would love to challenge myself against nature in soaring flight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I am contemplating getting a Pipstrel Taurus 2 seat self-launch motor glider, but want to be sure I fully understand all the operational and regulatory issues.First - some background: I did a fair bit of gliding in my late-teen/ university days thanks to an early introduction to gliding from my father - then use of his Grob Astir CS at Toqumwal. Having not flown much in between, I would now (some 30 years later) like to get back into gliding/flying and the idea of a motor glider seems great way to go. The idea of rigging and self launching from any RA airfiled and spending a day soaring is very attractive. The Taurus looks like very good fun. It appears RAA registration and an RAA license is the best option (I have started getting my license) - operational freedom mainly. But I suppose I would also get actively involved in GFA activity? Are there any issues with an RAA aircraft intermixing with GFA operations at an airfield for example? I live in Melbourne so would be looking for soaring sites reachable from say Lilydale - thinking mountain/slope in northern Gippsland, mountain flying over the high-country and soaring north of the mountains. Since there are no Taurus in the country, it is a little hard to judge exactly how it all works. I would be interested in any views on operations of a motor glider like this as an RAA aircraft but operating as a glider mainly, any thoughts on the Taurus etc. Barry I do not know about how the Taurus would fit into the RAA schema but if you elect to go with the GFA you will need to read this document and section 26 of the MOSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Milliken Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Hi Barry, i'm in a similar situation to yourself. I have been getting back into gliding after a break of 5 years or so. I was looking to see if anyone in Aus had a Taurus and came across this thread. It does look like a slick glider - the dual u/c and self launching is very attractive. The glide ratio isnt too bad either at 41:1 - which is okay for a 15m ship. I havent been able to get a price though from the Aus agents - the price link on the page doesnt give me anything. Have you considered a syndicate operation? Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I am contemplating getting a Pipstrel, (URL removed by mod) a 2 seat self-launch motor glider, but want to be sure I fully understand all the operational and regulatory issues.First - some background: I did a fair bit of gliding in my late-teen/ university days thanks to an early introduction to gliding from my father - then use of his Grob Astir CS at Toqumwal. Having not flown much in between, I would now (some 30 years later) like to get back into gliding/flying and the idea of a motor glider seems great way to go. The idea of rigging and self launching from any RA airfiled and spending a day soaring is very attractive. The Taurus looks like very good fun. It appears RAA registration and an RAA license is the best option (I have started getting my license) - operational freedom mainly. But I suppose I would also get actively involved in GFA activity? Are there any issues with an RAA aircraft intermixing with GFA operations at an airfield for example? I live in Melbourne so would be looking for soaring sites reachable from say Lilydale - thinking mountain/slope in northern Gippsland, mountain flying over the high-country and soaring north of the mountains. Since there are no Taurus in the country, it is a little hard to judge exactly how it all works. I would be interested in any views on operations of a motor glider like this as an RAA aircraft but operating as a glider mainly, any thoughts on the Taurus etc. Barry I know someone who has a Pipistrel Sinus motor glider. It has a '19' or '24' registration (I can't remember which). I believe he flies it using a GFA motor glider endorsement. I imagine that the registration and flying license requirements for a Taurus would be very similar to that of of the Sinus. I will ask him how he has addressed these issues next time I see him. The quality of the Sinus is very good - no doubt the Taurus would be of similar quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Hi Barry, i'm in a similar situation to yourself. I have been getting back into gliding after a break of 5 years or so.I was looking to see if anyone in Aus had a Taurus and came across this thread. It does look like a slick glider - the dual u/c and self launching is very attractive. The glide ratio isnt too bad either at 41:1 - which is okay for a 15m ship. I havent been able to get a price though from the Aus agents - the price link on the page doesnt give me anything. Have you considered a syndicate operation? Rob There is (url removed by Mod) price list avaliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Milliken Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I reckon landed you'd be looking between 200k-250k surely? Thats getting close to 2nd hand Stemme sv10 price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Hi Guys, Just thought I would mention that Gary Morgan from Morgan Aeroworks is in the design stages of a motor glider which can be hangared in a normal hangar. The outer section of the wings are removable. He is definitely worth a call. Alan Marriette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Hi Guys,Just thought I would mention that Gary Morgan from Morgan Aeroworks is in the design stages of a motor glider which can be hangared in a normal hangar. The outer section of the wings are removable. He is definitely worth a call. Alan Marriette. So what's a "normal hanger"? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 A hangar that holds an aircraft rather than a very long wing span glider. I thought that may have been obvious to most people. Sorry I didn't explain it properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 A hangar that holds an aircraft rather than a very long wing span glider.I thought that may have been obvious to most people. Sorry I didn't explain it properly. Its just that most gliders are hangered in "T hangers" which are much smaller than normal hangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hendy Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Thanks for all the comments. It is this mix between GFA and RAA that is the source of my questions; I believe the RAA/LSA regs make provision for gliders - for example they can have retracting undercarriage. I also understand the 'engine off' rules are relaxed for a glider. (Can't find that one though?) If I operated under GFA then I think there would be constraints about operations - e.g. I am not sure I can just arrive at a local field, rig and go - can I? And the cross country-by-motor one is interesting. Once again, RAA allows this - although the Taurus is not a touring aircraft so my interest is a return-to-home after a days flying concept. Price wise it is pretty attractive (are we allowed to quote prices here?) - full optioned plus an enclosed trailer is around $140K-$150K depending on exchange rates (EUR) Not cheap - but not in the same league as the 'classic' self launch gliders or Stemme. It is quoted as a 15 minute or so process to rig from trailer to the air, so I don't see the need for hangar and you are more flexible to take it away places. I would definitely be inteterested in a Melbourne-Eastern syndicate ... $150K is a lot for a toy!! a price included in a conversation is fine Barry. links to a price list is viewed with suspicion - Mod ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Most of the gliders that I have seen were in enormous hangars eg the old Sportavia one: 100m x 50 m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hendy Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Those Toqumwall hangers were amazing - I used to fly out of there. Huge things - some just being used for grain. I went past the area last year and was sad to see them all gone - they must have been unsafe I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Asbestos apparently - Sportavia's hangar still exists and two others not far away (one full of jets). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 To get back somewhat on topic - a few jet motor gliders in one of the Tocumwal hangars (I'd call this a normal hangar - a Bellman). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I cannot see any problems with using a Taurus from any airstrip. We have have a couple of members that do just that with motorized gliders. I guess if you are doing anything more than transiting then it would be necessary to liase with the airport owner - usually the shire. We sometimes go to another airport with about ten non motorized gliders and a tug for about two weeks of flying. We always liase with the shire and get a NOTAM issued but, otherwise, there is no problem. Maybe things are more relaxed here in WA than in other states. :-) $140K-$150K is a good price for a self launching twin with a trailer. You should be aware that the GFA rules require two DIs (by different people) after every re rigging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hendy Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 When you arrive at a new field - don't you requie a designated CFI to be 'in charge' of ops? And aren't the motor gliders at your field under the CFI. I thought this structure did not support an 'independent' motor glider operator under GFA rules as an effective one-man-show. (this is not based on any intimate knowledge of the GFA regs I must admit!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 When you arrive at a new field - don't you requie a designated CFI to be 'in charge' of ops? And aren't the motor gliders at your field under the CFI. I thought this structure did not support an 'independent' motor glider operator under GFA rules as an effective one-man-show. (this is not based on any intimate knowledge of the GFA regs I must admit!) There is an endorsement known as "Independent Operator". Without this endorsement flying operations must be under the authority of a level 2 or 3 instructor (and maybe a level 1 - I cannot remember). With this endorsement you are free to fly without an instructor being present. All the pilots I know who fly self launchers and motor gliders have this endorsement. I would think that it would be necessary for you to get this endorsement in order to make full use of a Taurus. In our case, when we go to a remote field, all the pilots are Independent Operators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 See section 19 of the MOSP for details of the Independent Operators endorsements. Also see section 17 of the same document for the instructor requirements for non Independent Operator flying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Hi Guys,Just thought I would mention that Gary Morgan from Morgan Aeroworks is in the design stages of a motor glider which can be hangared in a normal hangar. The outer section of the wings are removable. He is definitely worth a call. Alan Marriette. Hi Guernsey If you could get a update about the progress of the motor glider I'm sure it would make an interseting post to follow. Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hendy Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 I agree with Kaz above that regardless I should do some refresher training in gliders, but RAA cannot spin, but could a GFA instructor take me in a (my) RAA reg aircraft (glider) and do spin training - or do I have to hop into a GFA aircraft? Thank you Exadios for the info on "independent operators" - this certainly clarifies the option to go with GFA. Can anyone clarify the issues associated with high-altitude wave flying? It is certainly above the limits of RAA ops, but GFA are allowed up there are they? Under what conditions? and once again - is GFA both GFA certified pilot AND GFA registered aircraft? But the 8000ft RAA height limit will be frustrating. But back to the core question of which category to operate under and the limits of each: I am even more confused now. Both GFA - independent operator and RAA licensed seem a viable option - each with some limits. Which is the best way to base myself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I am contemplating getting a Pipstrel, (URL removed by mod) a 2 seat self-launch motor glider Would you consider the electric variant of the Taurus, Barry? (it looks interesting and impressive) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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