Bluey Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I can assure you the person who approved this event will get a legal grilling! From what facts I have read so far, there is a legal case to be answered by the organizers. Both the pilots and the parents of the children have a claim. Bluey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 http://www.oldbarbeachfestival.com.au/about_old_bar_airstrip.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I think I've lost a few posts there. I would like to think they are read carefully, and not discarded lightly. I don't believe they denegrate anybody personally. What is the point of putting the time in if they are removed that easily?. I've lost a fair bit of motivation to contribute further I'm afraid. Nev Of all the posts which should NOT have been removed, Facthunter's were the ones most crucial for us to learn what this flying is all about. It certainly is not aerial motoring with the same lack of attention to detail as you would put into driving the car down the road. He laid it on the line just as it should be laid on the line. This year, in various discussions, a lot of people have learnt a lot real fast, and it's heartening to me not to be seeing posts about someone getting his Certificate in 20 hours or going solo in an hour and a half, and knowing he going to bend an aircraft the minute he gets his first experience of wind shear. Without any doubt it's been a sobering and sad year, but these accidents must be discussed if we are to learn the street smarts required to keep us, and others safe. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 The removed posts were a handful of ferris wheel jokes and references to a thread on the so called professional pilots forum. But hey, let's not let that get in the way of a good conspiracy theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 The removed posts were a handful of ferris wheel jokes and references to a thread on the so called professional pilots forum. But hey, let's not let that get in the way of a good conspiracy theory! If Facthunter's posts are still there I apologise, and I'll go right back, but I think at least one is missing, and certainly a factual one of mine is missing, but that one doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Tubz, there were 23 posts removed. I assure you they were only removed as they were not really relevant to the incident. Yeah, sure. The jokes were funny, to us, but they were considered hurtful to persons more closely involved in the incident. The Pprune items went bye bye as if that's the way the posters over there wish to present themselves, so be it. This forum isn't that place. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 That webpage for the Old Bar Airstrip was this - with rotating images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allowera Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It is sad to see us living in times where small country shows are at risk of being shut down by high insurance costs. ( A bit like seeing small airstrips go the way of the dinosaur because of 'objections'). I wonder if there is a way of finding a positive outcome for all concerned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Mods,Please look into this, none of Nev's posts were worthy of deletion, please ensure this is not the case. David EDIT, Just read your post Locks, so I assume Nev's posts were not deleted. Correct DBI. Just some ferris wheel gags and the proon stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 With the aggregation of the posts, I may have failed to find them but a look through one section, I could only find one, and several seemed to be missing. I don't get much pleasure re-reading my posts because I always feel critical of them. They may be there, but I couldn't find any continuity. This always happens when some are deleted. Moderators have a hard time, and I have never felt the need to criticise, and I don't think it is fair to do it to them GENERALLY. If there have been none removed, I will accept that statement at face value. END of discussion. I don't have the right to expect to be treated any different from anyone else, I just ask that IF you find my assertions seem to be a bit OFF just re-read them to make sure that you have got the right slant on what is there. I have done this many times with the posts of others, and often found that my first impression was wrong. I don't apologise for being direct and forthright with my views because I hold many of them strongly. They are mostly related to safety. and they have taken many years to form Not all of them are correct , but we can kick our ideas around pretty well, and we must tolerate others views respectfully. We don't all think the same, and there wouldn't be much fun in it if we did. Moderation bothers me a little. We don't want much of it, but it has worked. Once our words go onto this forum, they become the property of all who are free to respond to them, and a dynamic is established which has its own form and flow. Sometimes feathers get ruffled SO... ( tough). Thanks for the support chaps, but it generally embarrasses me. (David knows that). Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 There is another thread running with a similar topic to this one. Could be where the confusion about missing posts is coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I don't doubt your integrity ahlocks. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cox Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Why is it that people feel the need to be judge jury and executioner ALL based on speculation. This incident could have happened to any one of us, let’s see what the outcome is based on the facts. So hopefully we all can take something positive out of it.Foot note to Paul Sorry that this has happend,i have met you when i was doing my training at Taree and know that safety is paramount with you.Please dont let this unfortunate incident stop you continuing your flying Kind Regards Kevin Thanks Kevin Great to hear from you. Thanks for the comment Some of the $#*% on here isnt worth reading. People really have no idea what really happened and what it’s like to survive something like that (and the potential and lives it could have affected) Then to judge on speculation before the facts are out are just plain nasty. I sat with the ATS and RAA inspectors today going over every aspect and they examined everything that happened from 3 days prior to the accident up until 5 minutes after the accident. (They were extremely thorough) - As a footnote the passenger I had with me approached Gary today asking if he could learn to fly in one of Gary’s planes. (I think that says a lot just there) Pilot in command Paul Cox 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Thanks KevinGreat to hear from you. Thanks for the comment Some of the $#*% on here isnt worth reading. People really have no idea what really happened and what it’s like to survive something like that (and the potential and lives it could have affected) Then to judge on speculation before the facts are out are just plain nasty. I sat with the ATS and RAA inspectors today going over every aspect and they examined everything that happened from 3 days prior to the accident up until 5 minutes after the accident. (They were extremely thorough) - As a footnote the passenger I had with me approached Gary today asking if he could learn to fly in one of Gary’s planes. (I think that says a lot just there) Pilot in command Paul Cox Welcome :welcome:Paul and thanks for coming on here. I imagine you are going through a full range of emotions and will continue to do so for some time. It is so good to be talking to you rather than about you, if you know what I mean. I think you will find, by and large, that the forums here are a great resource, well managed and maintained, and usually with a minimum of moderator intervention. I hope you get to like us here and stay around to contribute. I know we can learn lots from you already:yes: Regards, Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 The removed posts were a handful of ferris wheel jokes and references to a thread on the so called professional pilots forum. But hey, let's not let that get in the way of a good conspiracy theory! Firstly there is still a ferris wheel joke up, and I agree jokes have no place in an accident thread. Secondly two of Facthunters posts have disappeared; they were both factual rather hard hitting, but very specifically pointed out the responsibilities of the Pilot In Command. There is a Moderator problem here, particularly on accident threads. See post 142.......Moderator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Locks, I concur with Turbz, I have gone back through all the posts and definitely some of Nev's posts have disappeared and they MUST be restored. I have never seen any post from Nev that is worthy of moderation. This has got to stop. Moderation is OK, Censorship is not.David Hear hear. There There ...see post 142.....Moderator Oops, wrong again... Sorry.... Wayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Firstly there is still a ferris wheel joke up, and I agree jokes have no place in an accident thread.Secondly two of Facthunters posts have disappeared; they were both factual rather hard hitting, but very specifically pointed out the responsibilities of the Pilot In Command. There is a Moderator problem here, particularly on accident threads. I have to apologise. The two posts I was thinking of were on the Rocketdriver thread #3, #17. Apology accepted.....Moderator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I agree with you David. The rules about operating in and out of an ALA are pretty clear from a pilots view point. However, if the operators see a risk as obvious as that and they ignore it because they can claim it is not their responsibility then they can still be deemed negligent. From the photos, the ferris wheel is very close to the runway line. If I were the operator and I was seeing aircraft fly at low level past one of my ferris wheels day after day I'd be very worried about my liability if some pilot got it wrong. A court will not accept " I saw the danger but didn't think it was up to me to do something about it " as an excuse. Each party has a duty of care. If a good barrister can establish that the operator was aware of the risk and did nothing about it, then they are in trouble. Either way, I'd be surprised if the event runs again next year in the same place. If it does, I expect the airfield will be closed for the duration. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 The time of placement of the white cross seen in the Channel 7 video will be a big issue in that Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I hope we have a measured responce but given the potential for disaster that was only miraculously avoided I doubt it. I don't see the airfield being permanently closed from this as I don't see a significant risk to anything else when the event is not running. On a different note, was this the first attempt at landing for the aircraft in question? The reason why I ask is that I have assumed it was. This makes sense as I can understand the ferris wheel being missed the first time by both pilots but not on subsequent fly bys. Given that they didn't see it, why not? Especially considering it is quite clear in the photos. All I can think of to explain this is that glare caused by the overcast conditions made the relatively thin metal structure difficult to spot. If I'm not mistaken, it is a white structure. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Bluey there are procedures to follow on approach to an airfield and or before conducting operations from an airfield, and they start well before takeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yes, absolutely. I'm assuming a phone call to the owner or operator would have identified the risk to an aircraft at this time? Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cox Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Hi David Yes legally I cant comment on anything that happened at the interview. ATS had me sign a legal document to that end. Just briefly I have been through everything a 1000 times since the accident and believe a bad landing yes and an aborted landing but everything from the time I aborted was text book and I dont think i did anything wrong from that point. I was in a nose up attitude, as stated in the news interviews straight after the accident and neither myself nor my passenger saw a thing until the bang. From my persective I had nothing but clear skys in front of me and I was out of there. - Gary Morgan and Tim Morgan his son were there at the time watching the whole thing. Gary Morgan his wife Chris and Tim Morgan his son stayed the whole time at the accident giving moral support. They have all kept in close contact with me ever since offering what ever moral support they could. I feel for everyone involved no matter how distant they were to this including sideshow people guests at the show the poor children that were in the cage above. When you hear a child crying just above you for his mother and its because of what I had done and there was nothing I could do but listen to him cry puts a knot in your chest. _ Any suggestions I can give to help from this. Dont just look when at a strange runway. "Examine" Overfly the runway not just to check the windsock amd runway but "everything" Look hard because in photos you can see the ferris wheel from the runway but in a nose up attitude travelling at speed in a low wing you see nothing but open sky. If I knew that ferris wheel was there I could have avoided it by a slight adjustment. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Thanks David, anyone know if the airfield is still closed or if the event is still running? Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 All the best to you Paul. Very glad your still with us. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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