bull Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 What a load of codswollop this was a raa trained pilot in an ultralight aircraft registed or not of cource it should be investigated and acted apon by raa, just because they changed the name does not change the fact that this was an ultralight aircraft.Licence or not he should be made face the laws of our sport [remember when raa was called :shock horror: Australian ultralight federation you know ULTRALIGHTS not cheap regulation dodging plastic cessnas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 why has our sport been hijacked by lsa pilots who want ga priviliges without the regulation [increased mtow,longer range more payload]think back to the roots of ultralighting it was for fun and to allow the average joe to enjoy the thrill of flight ,not go 700 miles and take the dog and the misses and 70kg of luggage this is ga territory.What happenned to weekend fun flying get togethers bbqs. Now its like g,day mate wheres the fuel bowser thanks mate ,as they fly off to the Ga airport of choice!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 why has our sport been hijacked by lsa pilots who want ga priviliges without the regulation [increased mtow,longer range more payload]think back to the roots of ultralighting it was for fun and to allow the average joe to enjoy the thrill of flight ,not go 700 miles and take the dog and the misses and 70kg of luggage this is ga territory.What happenned to weekend fun flying get togethers bbqs. Now its like g,day mate wheres the fuel bowser thanks mate ,as they fly off to the Ga airport of choice!!! Well Bull, that is another whole passionate discussion that deserves its own thread. May I suggest you register at Recreationalflying.com and start a thread on that very issue. That is the site reserved for RAA issues. I am certain it will be a lively discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMcK Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Mr Bull, I see you are a new member, and as such it may explain why you are not quite familiar with the rules. Perhaps there are others, so this may help. CASA "owns" all aviation in Australia, and RAAus is a self administering body for certain types of aircraft working under CASA's direct authority. RAAus has no "prosecuting" power, and all it can do is suspend or cancel a members "licence" or membership. Nothing more. If you aren't a member, RAAus have absolutely no authority or power over you. If you are not a member and fly an RAAus registered aircraft, RAAus still has absolutely no power over you. All RAAus can do is report you to CASA and the local police. Re the crash itself. All accidents come under the control and authority of ATSB. Here again RAAus have absolutely no authority. If the ATSB decides, for whatever reason, not to investigate the accident it passes the authority to the local police. RAAus Accident Investigators are often called in to assist in the investigation and either help ATSB or the police as they have the technical knowledge, however there is no requirement for this to happen. Some years ago I was personally involved in investigating a Drifter crash that never went anywhere in RAAus because it was unregistered (Just like this case). I assisted the police on the technical side as we had an interest to find the cause (to help prevent similar accidents). The local police were in charge as ATSB didn't want to investigate. (Management of scarce resources) Once we had determined the most likely cause of the accident we departed and left the matter up to the police. RAAus believes the cause of Hume accident is fairly obvious. If a wing fell off in flight, for example, I am sure we would offer our assistance on the technical side, as we would have an interest to know why. The police could accept or decline our technical help. In the case in question here the only people with any power or authority are ATSB, CASA and the local police. Only CASA or the police can lay charges against the pilot. I read some pretty harsh comments in this thread. Perhaps we should wait until all the facts come out. For all we know this may be a once off, out of character brain snap. There is no doubt this guy is in serious trouble, he will have no hull insurance, and no third party insurance, so criminal charges are not his only concern. If he is wealthy there could be numerous civil actions against him for "stress", "anxiety" or whatever else the litigation lawyers can claim. We may think the worst of him privately, but perhaps we should not act so much like a pack of dogs, (all against one in a dog fight) in print format. My thoughts anyway. John mcK 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Mr Bull, I see you are a new member, and as such it may explain why you are quite ignorant of the rules. Perhaps there are others, so this may help.CASA "owns" all aviation in Australia, and RAAus is a self administering body for certain types of aircraft working under CASA's direct authority. RAAus has no "prosecuting" power, and all it can do is suspend or cancel a members "licence" or membership. Nothing more. If you aren't a member, RAAus have absolutely no authority or power over you. If you are not a member and fly an RAAus registered aircraft, RAAus still has absolutely no power over you. All RAAus can do is report you to CASA and the local police. Re the crash itself. All accidents come under the control and authority of ATSB. Here again RAAus have absolutely no authority. If the ATSB decides, for whatever reason, not to investigate the accident it passes the authority to the local police. RAAus Accident Investigators are often called in to assist in the investigation and either help ATSB or the police as they have the technical knowledge, however there is no requirement for this to happen. Excellent clarification John ... thanks, I had asked the question earlier as to whether RA Aus had any prosecuting power, I had always thought they had none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 why has our sport been hijacked by lsa pilots who want ga priviliges without the regulation [increased mtow,longer range more payload]think back to the roots of ultralighting it was for fun and to allow the average joe to enjoy the thrill of flight ,not go 700 miles and take the dog and the misses and 70kg of luggage this is ga territory.What happenned to weekend fun flying get togethers bbqs. Now its like g,day mate wheres the fuel bowser thanks mate ,as they fly off to the Ga airport of choice!!! Hi bull, The short answer is!.... RAA is appointed by CASA to administrate recreational aviation. These days, recreational aircraft come in all shapes and sizes,no longer just a garden chair with a wing on it. Pilots, who, for whatever reason, don`t want to or can`t meet GA requirements and wish to fly the modern aircraft, simply turn to RAA. Frank. Ps, The other day, a guy who sold his Drifter, a while back, and is thinking of buying another, said to me, " Frank, they`ve made a buisness out of it,they don`t give a stuff about us anymore"....His words not mine and I don`t know that is correct. Pps, I`m sure everyone can still get together,somewhere, and have a Bar,B, Q. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 why has our sport been hijacked by lsa pilots who want ga priviliges without the regulation [increased mtow,longer range more payload]think back to the roots of ultralighting it was for fun and to allow the average joe to enjoy the thrill of flight ,not go 700 miles and take the dog and the misses and 70kg of luggage this is ga territory.What happenned to weekend fun flying get togethers bbqs. Now its like g,day mate wheres the fuel bowser thanks mate ,as they fly off to the Ga airport of choice!!! They haven't hijacked it, you're still allowed to choose your own aircraft, there are still plenty of basic aircraft, no one's restricting any choices. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Thanks John for that info,and yes i am a new member but learnt to fly back in 1980 in one of the first geminis and fisher koala,s,himax ,my point being i have watched the growth of our sport and not without missgivings .Now onto RAA is a regulatory body is it not?therefore it should be able to impose fines ,restrictions,for breaches of its regulations.scenario"a car crashes into a house ,not registed driver no licence ,cops turn up and say no rego ,no licence well no investigation and no charges...................get real people!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 If you really like what you fly , what does it matter if others don't fly the same? .. There is a lot of choice now. We are all very different. Some of it is far too dear for me. Diversity and tolerance are a strength I personally feel that we were focussed on growth, which does give some benefits. If you are a really small organisation no 0ne will take any notice of you and rules will just happen and it will be" cop it or else just go away"..The increased complexity may have been inevitable BUT we should resist anything that is NOT necessary and go with and support those things that are good, (in the big picture) We still have a big say in what is done in our organisation, IF we agree on what WE want. Obviously any individual will not get all he/she wants, but collectively we will, if we feel strongly enough about it. In a diverse organisation you can't please everyone, ( by definition).. Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks John for that info,and yes i am a new member but learnt to fly back in 1980 in one of the first geminis and fisher koala,s,himax ,my point being i have watched the growth of our sport and not without missgivings .Now onto RAA is a regulatory body is it not?therefore it should be able to impose fines ,restrictions,for breaches of its regulations.scenarimo"a car crashes into a house ,not registed driver no licence ,cops turn up and say no rego ,no licence well no investigation and no charges...................get real people!!!!!!! Bull... the police don't handle regos or licensing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 G,day Nev <i agree wholeheartly with your comments, it just seems that the grass roots of ULTRALIGHT AIRCRAFT have been pushed aside for the wizz bang flying plastics with auto pilots transponders,lights and bells...........What about the old school who just want to take their flying hills hoist out to the paddock for a couple of hours of fun,are we forgotten??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 G,day Nev <i agree wholeheartly with your comments, it just seems that the grass roots of ULTRALIGHT AIRCRAFT have been pushed aside for the wizz bang flying plastics with auto pilots transponders,lights and bells...........What about the old school who just want to take their flying hills hoist out to the paddock for a couple of hours of fun,are we forgotten??? No we are not forgotten, we are all part of a larger organisation with a bigger voice. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 G,day Nev <i agree wholeheartly with your comments, it just seems that the grass roots of ULTRALIGHT AIRCRAFT have been pushed aside for the wizz bang flying plastics with auto pilots transponders,lights and bells...........What about the old school who just want to take their flying hills hoist out to the paddock for a couple of hours of fun,are we forgotten??? Well a lot of the comments on here come from those people. It might just be a matter of starting a thread on something that interests you bull, and you'll probably attract people who've got interest in the same area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Fair chance that if a grass roots driver was to go annoy the bejezuz out of a heap of people and then splaticate in front of them they'd quickly learn that they've not been forgotten at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We still have a big say in what is done in our organisation, IF we agree on what WE want. Nev ....That`s pretty close to the bottom line!.... Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 As a Trike flyer(grass roots...)....and a J230 flyer (GA wannabe by your definition) Im not at all interested in belonging to 2 incorporated clubs (no RAA is not a regulatory body) when I can do it all under 1 club. Flyers, no matter where they come from are a minority group in any event and anything that further subdivides that grouping is probably not to our advantage. Personally I believe that the fact that across the flyers spectrum we have multiple groups as it is, is probably wrong, seperate group fror hang gliders and trikes, seperate group for rotary, then there's all the GA affiliated groupings. I could never understand the logic in thinking "weve lost our roots" can you give me one or more examples of anything that has been lost as a result of how we have evolved? To my mind, all we've lost is the restrictions on what we can fly and Im stuffed if I can see why that is a bad thing... If RACQ had adopted the approach you infer you'd possibly still have a fantastic horse drawn cart service in QLD which is great...except the need is much wider than that. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What a load of codswollop this was a raa trained pilot in an ultralight aircraft registed or not of cource it should be investigated and acted apon by raa, just because they changed the name does not change the fact that this was an ultralight aircraft.Licence or not he should be made face the laws of our sport [remember when raa was called :shock horror: Australian ultralight federation you know ULTRALIGHTS not cheap regulation dodging plastic cessnas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hi bull, I can fully understand your sentiments here, that prang and stupidity will be investigated by somebody either Casa or the Police and all the do-gooders and excuse makers will not count. Like you I am not happy with the direction the AUF has gone, basically hijacked by a bunch of GA wanabes. If the ultralight guys did not have to subsidise the de-facto GAs with the expense of RAAus pursuing stuff like controlled air space and heavy faster aircraft it would be a fairer system. Of course none of the de-facto GAs will agree with this. Regards Richard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Well Bull, that is another whole passionate discussion that deserves its own thread.May I suggest you register at Recreationalflying.com and start a thread on that very issue. That is the site reserved for RAA issues. I am certain it will be a lively discussion. Guys, We need to move this line of discussion to the Recflying site. Mods can you put all these posts in the other site under a new thread and put a link here to that thread please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 You mean after #289? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You mean after #289? Yes I did, thankyou for clarifying that point Tubz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMcK Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks John for that info,and yes i am a new member but learnt to fly back in 1980 in one of the first geminis and fisher koala,s,himax ,my point being i have watched the growth of our sport and not without missgivings .Now onto RAA is a regulatory body is it not?therefore it should be able to impose fines ,restrictions,for breaches of its regulations.scenario"a car crashes into a house ,not registed driver no licence ,cops turn up and say no rego ,no licence well no investigation and no charges...................get real people!!!!!!! Hi Mr Bull First I am also rag and tube trained back in the old days, (member 4838) and love the Drifters, also coming from the old AUF I share some of your concerns, but Recreational Aviation is for all types of flyers sharing a common goal. Re RAAus. CASA is the regulator, not us. We self administer certain types of aircraft under CASA's direction and authority. In your example above say the guy belonged to the Bowen Bull Automobile Club. All you could do as President is kick him out of the club. If his membership had expired many months ago you could do nothing. Same with us. CASA or the Police will bring charges, should they choose. RAAus has no power to bring charges itself, but on occasion we have petitioned CASA or the Police to do so on our behalf. Perhaps this could change in the future and the Government give us the power and authority to bring charges (Like the RSPCA) but I personally would not like to see this happen. The same applies to all the other Rec. people. If someone goes parachuting or gliding without the correct qualifications those bodies can terminate membership, but it is CASA or the Police only who have the power to bring charges. All in all the vast majority of our 10,000 members do the right thing, and it is extremely rare we have to ask for charges to be laid. Cheers, John McK PS Drop in at Boonah. The guys there provide most of what you desire, including great hanger talk and monthly bar-b-ques. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So how is he can fly around unregistered/unlicenced and no one says anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Why didn't you see him and report him FT. What if he's a farmer, bought it 20 years ago, had some lessons, flew it from his property? If you want RAA to be everywhere, count up the number of staff, superannuation, cars etc to cover Australia and divide that by 9600 so they can watch us all and your subscription would probably be $30,000.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So how is he can fly around unregistered/unlicenced and no one says anything? Possibly because no one else new. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 wasn't he flying out of an active airfield? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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