David Isaac Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Turbo you can just click on the ignore button.David, I am only explaining the attitude that I am seeing, I don't know why you can't see it. Ok, now I am with you and some definitely do have an expectation that the authorities should 'see' everything. However, there are many that don't and many of us support a self regulating environment where in essence we are 'Our brothers keeper'. That can be achieved without the 'dob in' approach as a first reaction. For example we could use the power of peer pressure to counsel someone who may be a little wayward. That certainly worked with me as a young fellow; particularly where the person who approached me did so with a 'gentle spirit' and especially where he was older. In the end I appreciated the counsel and in some cases I did not fully understand the folly of my actions. To this day I can remember the approach of some wise old owls and appreciate it still. If we could all encourage and engender that attitude in RAA and GA I believe we could successfully self regulate and leave the bad eggs to CASA; because if some one we collectively or individually counseled did not act on our advice and continued in wayward behaviour, I would argue we would have an obligation (read duty of care) to report them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I have no problem with self regulation, ( Personal Responsibility ), but I will not accept a system whereby we are all expected to see that the other guy is doing the right thing. On the aircraft in the lake!.....How about we allow " The System" to do it`s job. Frank. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Its a balancing act Franko, The 'brothers keeper' thing is a 'Management by Exception' thing. That means we all act responsibly and look after our own affairs. If some one is seen to be doing the wrong thing we have two choices ... report them or approach them. That is the only way to protect out organisational privileges. I prefer the approach method as a first resort and the report method as a last resort. In effect the system is working well on the Lake Hume accident because the pilot by the consequences of his actions effectively self reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Regardless of the self reporting it is my experience that without effective auditing you end up with the mess that is Australian Aviation today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I think we have a self perpetuating system, the pilots that do not want to be scrutinized gravitate to the system that asks no questions. I have got reservations about hopping into an RAA plane as there is no guarantee that the pilot or plane meets any sort of standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 In the Aircraft Pilots News Section: CASA to quiz ultralight crash witnesses http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/casa-to-quiz-ultralight-crash-witnesses.33315/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The concept of where this discussion has gone relates to our behaviour as participants of an organisaton that has generated certain privileges over the years for the operations of ultralight aircraft. The Lake Hume accident is just a consequence of perhaps where we may have either failed as an organisation to see this one coming or this guy was an independant rogue operator. In effect the system still works on the Lake Hume accident because the pilot by the consequences of his actions effectively self reported. Eventually if you push the boundaries you will be found out. We hope that the 'finding out' is without the loss of life or serious injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-man Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I think we have a self perpetuating system, the pilots that do not want to be scrutinized gravitate to the system that asks no questions.I have got reservations about hopping into an RAA plane as there is no guarantee that the pilot or plane meets any sort of standard. That's a bit harsh. I didn't gravitate to RA. I chose RA. We have our aircraft serviced by a qualified person at the required time. Whether someone chooses to fly with me is their choice but in the circles I enjoy there are no pilots I would not have the confidence to fly with. Their planes also are regularly maintained and we all talk about when the BFR is due or whatever. And, BTW, I had to produce my pilot certificate and my log book for my BFR. Getting back to the OP and the qualification of otherwise of the pilot. There was mention earlier of him doing "loops". Now this guy had an expired RA student licence but does anyone know if at some stage he had a ppl? It doesn't ring true to me that a guy just starting to fly, and with limited experience, would do what he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 How many RAA pilots died in 2011? 2 guys from warwick + 2 pilot passenger trike instructor and student in tassie thats 6. where there anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I think we have a self perpetuating system, the pilots that do not want to be scrutinized gravitate to the system that asks no questions.I have got reservations about hopping into an RAA plane as there is no guarantee that the pilot or plane meets any sort of standard. I think it is a perception thing FT. There are NO guarantees in life. Not even as to the operational standard of a GA aeroplane or the competency of a GA pilot, however, the perception certainly is that a GA aeroplane has to meet a higher maintenance standard. I have seen some pretty shonky LAME work in my time and some pretty shonky repairs on Ultralights. That is why you don't just jump in any plane with any pilot without being reasonably sure as to fitness and competency of both plane and pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Evans Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Let The system run it course "now that smart" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 How many RAA pilots died in 2011?2 guys from warwick + 2 pilot passenger trike instructor and student in tassie thats 6. where there anymore? Did you include the two in the Super Petrel in Lake at Jindabine and the 72 year old in the Jabiru engine failure incident in January last year near Renmark and the guy in the water in the Speed 2000 at North Curl Curl Sydney?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 K-man: a lot of people are new to aviation like me chose the RAA for the lower entry costs. But the other reason is you know you won't pass your GA reviews, the guy that crashed the sapphire is unusual in that he survived the accident. Dead men tell no lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 How many RAA pilots died in 2011? super petrel from warwick: salesman and pilot passenger longezy from warwick: instructor and pilot passenger trike in tassie: instructor and student jabiru near renmark: pilot thats 7, does 2 instructors in 1 year seem a lot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Its a balancing act Franko, I prefer the approach method as a first resort and the report method as a last resort. Personal choice David and I don`t have a problem with that. Frank. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 How many RAA pilots died in 2011?super petrel from warwick: salesman and pilot passenger longezy from warwick: instructor and pilot passenger trike in tassie: instructor and student jabiru near renmark: pilot thats 7, does 2 instructors in 1 year seem a lot? Of course it is FT, it was a shocking year and the problem for all of us is that we may not know the reasons because of the State Police and Coroner involvement in all of those accidents - where was the ATSB when we needed them most - well they were involved in the Ferris Wheel incident and the Lake Hume accident neither of which were fatalities????? EDIT: BTW its 8 + 3 instructors you forgot the guy off North Curl Curl and one of the guys in the Petrel was an instructor GA and RAA from memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 the guy that crashed the sapphire is unusual in that he survived the accident.Dead men tell no lies. Maybe it`s just the sun that I`ve been working in all morning, getting to me! What the hell is that gem supposed to mean?.....That all those who survive a crash, tell lies? Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 In this case he seemed to start off that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 trike in tassie: instructor and student IIRC only the student died in this accident ? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Ipersonally know at least 5 raa plastic drivers who have said that they would fail any medical and thats why they fly raa ,now 600kg at 90 knots will do just as much damage as a 182 which the casa medical is for so some 60 year old pilot does,nt have a heart attack or fit or pass out because of a medical condition ,flying raa to avoid these medicals [designed with public safety in mind]in a fantastic plastic which can do just as much damage ,to me is just fraud and bypassing any safety issues implemented over a very long time ,i will be selling my aircraft and not renewing my licence in raa........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 why is it the SAAA seem to get higerh performance planes = increased NEED for safety standards. CASA are funding their new IRIS system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Ipersonally know at least 5 raa plastic drivers who have said that they would fail any medical and thats why they fly raa ,now 600kg at 90 knots will do just as much damage as a 182 which the casa medical is for so some 60 year old pilot does,nt have a heart attack or fit or pass out because of a medical condition ,flying raa to avoid these medicals [designed with public safety in mind]in a fantastic plastic which can do just as much damage ,to me is just fraud and bypassing any safety issues implemented over a very long time ,i will be selling my aircraft and not renewing my licence in raa........................ bull, you're looking at this from the wrong angle. If 9599 pilots were doing the wrong thing and you were doing the right thing than I could understand your reaction. The vast majority of RAA members are doing the right thing. Don't get sucked into the stirring going on here today, someone is just having his bizarre fun. The five plastic drivers might well have used the words fail a medical, but I suspect that means fail the CASA medical which is stringent in some areas. I would be very surprised if they were found unfit to drive a car, and that's what RA pilots have to meet. If they couldn't meet that standard and are a liability get off your arse and sort them out rather than ask everyone in creation to do it for you. And why would you punish yourself by selling your aircraft just for what someone, who as far as we know may have been a complete rogue, did. The idea is to punish him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 the lack of medical requirements to get your raa licence is outdated by the weight and speed of todays fantastic plastics .The medical requirements for AUF membership where for much lighter and slower less inertia aircraft that wouldn,t really crash through the roof of a house and could be stopped and landed in very little room with very little damage.The hijacking of the ultralight fun flyer activities by the regulation dodging [we want brigade ,ie more speed /more range .cta more danger [flying over heavily populated areas]is fraud and a joke to common sence RAA has lost a lot of founding [rag and tube brigade]members because of this blatent fraud .I love flying and flying for fun ,if i want ga rules i,ll get a ppl and do the medical if i fail well,i wont fly ,icould be a danger to someones life Raa has lost the meaning of flying for fun ,its all about speed weight range and can i fly into sydney please what a joke . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Bull, thats ashame. I know of 2 CPL holders who died of heart attacks within 1 month of passing a medical. Another recently, an old CFI passed his medical, 2 months later is in hospital having cancer removed from his liver and a tripple bypass aswel. If you feel a piece of paper from a doctor makes us all safe, then think again. Quite often these guys who wouldn't pass a medical have had it knocked back for the stupidest reasons. Back to topic.. Are the photos from earlier of the actual aircraft involved in the accident?..On the same day?(flying low over the boat) If so, shouldn't they be given to the powers that be to aid their investigation, if indeed any investigation is being done. I can't see too much going on, it doesn't take a government inquiry to work out whats happend here. Normally I reckon discussion on accidents are a good thing as we can all learn from others "misfortune" and in this case I see it as a CASE IN POINT. Is simple... Fly Like this... Expect this... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Metalman's right bull, I forgot about that. The medical issue is next to negligible with the regulations we work to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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