winsor68 Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 And we don't think that the ones who have just resigned with the possibility of there being more yet to resign did not qualify with the above criteria???? Yet they have resigned ... come on guys do you think you could make any difference if the ones we held our hopes in have resigned ... get a grip and lets step out of naive Territory please.Under the current conditions you need more than just what is defined above, you need good corporate governance experience and the 'BALLS' to implement it. That is the current key problem when you have a board who cannot for reasons of too many Board members who don't have experience and a good grip on corporate governance and won't hold the CEO accountable for poor performance that has the potential to bring OUR organisation down big time. For Pete's sake ... ask yourself how we could possibly have got ourselves in the current huge liability position where we are having to ground all these 'LSA' aircraft that obviously should have NEVER been given LSA status. Isn't it bloody obvious ... do you think we are grounding them for fun ... I do NOT think so. There are huge management issues at stake here. Who was in control when all this happened and why is he NOT being held accountable? That is the question that the Board needs to answer. The Board needs to get its act together and make the management accountable. Imagine the liability this mismanagement could bring on the individual board members ... why do you think they are resigning????? The Board structure (our current constitution) and the current cooperative attitude is all part of the problem. And for the benefit of the naive, the above could only be the logical conclusion any reasonable person could draw ... how did all this happen under the CEO's watch and why is he still there? In any normal corporate sense the CEO would be held accountable. Has anyone seen the accountability. It would appear the Board is impotent! I make no apology for my strong words ... unchecked this management incompetence could destroy us and we should all be demanding that our reps come out publicly with this information PLEASE... I URGE YOU ALL TO READ THIS AGAIN... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 ....... we should all be demanding that our reps come out publicly with this information BTW, in relation to my comment above, I think I should point out that we shouldn't expect any of the Board to come out publicly and say what is happening on this website. That simply will NOT happen ... maybe the only way we will hear from the 'horses mouth' is if one of the Board gives someone on this forum permission to post an email sent to that member ... we will wait and see. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 how did all this happen under the CEO's watch and why is he still there? In any normal corporate sense the CEO would be held accountable. Has anyone seen the accountability. It would appear the Board is impotent! 99% of people I talk to don't like the CEO (nothing personal of course) so why is he still there, that's what I can't figure? We have 10,000+ members paying $190 something bucks a year and all we get in return is all this mess? Are we all trying to be to polite by not saying anything, and watching everything crumble down before our eyes, or are we going to do something? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 First time that I have seen Tomo enter the political argument with fighting words....things must be pretty crook! And just in case, no disrespect intended Tomo, just observing that the usual ones are loud in a political discussion, but some of the more happy go lucky ones like yourself are normally to busy flying to buy into the mess. I may not like CASA much, but I certainly know what I get and where I stand with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 99% of people I talk to don't like the CEO (nothing personal of course) so why is he still there, that's what I can't figure? We have 10,000+ members paying $190 something bucks a year and all we get in return is all this mess? Are we all trying to be to polite by not saying anything, and watching everything crumble down before our eyes, or are we going to do something? The short answer is probably no. If you recall 18 months ago there were prominent people on here putting a spoke in the wheel every time someone raised serious concerns - they've now got what they deserved. How many people stood up and supported Don Ramsay, in what was obviously going to be an extremely difficult first term on a job that was going to take several terms? Even at the most basic level of all, how many of you didn't even bother to vote and support the ones who wanted to clean things up? If you're now looking for sympathy, it's in the dictionary between sh$t and Syph$llis. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The current system seems designed to isolate the management and board from the rank and file. Its unlikely you will see the management change anything in a hurry. The tell us they are doing a good job and who are we to question them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The CEO presides over the office and RAAus has just had one of the worst audits in their history yet the CEO has just been given a pay rise that was strongly supported by the President (Runciman)...personally I believe that in the corporate arena if a CEO doesn't perform then I don't think they would get a pay rise...do you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The current system seems designed to isolate the management and board from the rank and file. Its unlikely you will see the management change anything in a hurry. The tell us they are doing a good job and who are we to question them. Another FT exclusive. Most of the rank and bloody file didn't even bother to VOTE! Most of the rest didn't bother to even make basic phone calls do basic research. It's very much self inflicted! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The CEO presides over the office and RAAus has just had one of the worst audits in their history yet the CEO has just been given a pay rise that was strongly supported by the President (Runciman)...personally I believe that in the corporate arena if a CEO doesn't perform then I don't think they would get a pay rise...do you? Unfortunately it seems to have all the time in the Corporate Arena... Doesn't make it OK but... just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The easiest way to manipulate a democracy is to disconnect people off the outcome. People don't bother voting because they can't see their vote creating any change. The state reps don't stand on issues they stand on their flying experience... The only guy that stood as a candidate on an issue was Don Ramsey. Do we agree that the RAA is the organisation we deserve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Unfortunately it seems to have all the time in the Corporate Arena... Doesn't make it OK but... just sayin. Ok, I will change the statement to say "Employee" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 First time that I have seen Tomo enter the political argument with fighting words....things must be pretty crook! And just in case, no disrespect intended Tomo, just observing that the usual ones are loud in a political discussion, but some of the more happy go lucky ones like yourself are normally to busy flying to buy into the mess.I may not like CASA much, but I certainly know what I get and where I stand with them. Yes I must say I much rather stay out of the political side of things as it seems to me lots of hot air is produced but no lift off occurs. It also seems to me no matter how good a person is at something they will get stung being a board member?! So we need to find the source of the sting if things are going to improve. To do that we need facts. If we could get an understanding from those resigning to say why they have, it might help out in a very important way. You are dead right Bandit in saying the majority of us are out flying, I believe that's because the members don't want to be a part of a messy club. Members are loosing hope in making change, because all it involves is the person being stung?! CASA might be a pain at times, but I fully agree, at least you know where you stand on most occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Knowing where you stand with CASA !!?? After you've been ramped a few times, and undergone a few AOC/Flying School audits - your opinion may be tempered somewhat. happy days, 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Knowing where you stand with CASA !!??After you've been ramped a few times, and undergone a few AOC/Flying School audits - your opinion may be tempered somewhat. happy days, To be the devils advocate here...if you won't pass a ramp check, should you be flying anyway? Besides, CASA can ramp check any RAAus registered aircraft now anyway...can't they? In regards to the Flying School Audits, should they be teaching if they don't pass an audit which is done by RAAus currently under the rules set out by CASA (by way of approval of the Ops manual) as well. What was bandied about in an earlier post was along the lines of the RAAus Ops manual being administered by CASA and not abolishing the RAAus Ops Manual. I personally don't think that CASA would want to have RAAus simply due to the pressure that can be applied to them by so many recreational aviators voicing their opinions/thoughts...at the moment they can stay at arms length wielding a stick at a "body" rather then a mass group of people where they would be in the direct line of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 This is how it is meant to work: The Board provides governance. To govern means that the Board establishes policies, procedures and targets (goals) so an organisation can properly function in accordance with the Board-set wishes. To check this, the Board will set up indicators or benchmarks to ensure that things are done on time in the right procedural manner. The Management (headed by the CEO) provides execution. To execute means to carry out the wishes of the Board in accordance with their policies and procedures and they are charged to meet the targets or goals set by the Board. This system has not only been just workable but very successful in many kinds of organisations in many countries over many centuries. Any departure from this tried-and-proven system ends up in organisational dysfunction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The CEO presides over the office and RAAus has just had one of the worst audits in their history yet the CEO has just been given a pay rise that was strongly supported by the President (Runciman)...personally I believe that in the corporate arena if a CEO doesn't perform then I don't think they would get a pay rise...do you? Payrise?? On the contrary, if a CEO doesn't perform, the Board (the governors of an organisation ~ see above) often issues the CEO with a DCM. (DCM = Don't see you on Monday) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 You missed Potts point Ian. He is not sayings audits are bad. He talking about the unpredictable manner in which CASA operate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 You can't preorganise audits, they have to be unplanned and random to be effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 This is how it is meant to work: That might be a general theme, but an Incorporated Association has rules to which it must work (usually decided by volunteers when it is set up, so they can be very sloppy), so in commenting about RAA, you need to make sure you read its Constitution first, then comment within thise confines. In my opinion the constitution is one of the achilles heels of RAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 damkia, sorry to take so long to add to the research you did way back on post #23. It is as you point out, very easy for Members to get rid of board members and make changes considered necessary. RAA is similar to many other Associations in that respect. Since you don't want little cliques forming and using those clauses to turf out good representatives and put their cronies in, there is usually a clause which requires a substantial number of Members to support that action. In the case of the RAA, board members are not likely to call a General Meeting if they think their future will be affected. That leaves the mechanism of the Members calling a General Meeting to do the things you outlined. The weakness in the RAA system is that the membership is not like a local Club where everyone gets to know what a problem is and it's not hard to get a two thirds majority on the floor at a meeting. Firstly RAA Members have to request a General Meeting, and that requires writing a letter, or making individual contact. Secondly, Rule 23 (ii) says: "The Board shall, on the requisition of not less than 5% of the total number of members, convene a general meeting of the Association" Now, with around 10,000 members, that would be around 500 people who would have to specifically write a letter, pick up the phone, send an email etc. Since it isn't possible to get anyhere near that number to even VOTE, you can see the problem. And that's why, when concerns were raised 18 months ago it was realised that there was no point jumping up and down when there was a vocal opposition who wanted to keep things quiet, stifling any chance of reaching 10,000 members with enough force to get them off their seats, and so the best action was to get good people to campaign election by election, which was always of course going to take 4 to 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 No, its the people that are the problem not the system. You can change the system. The CEO just needs to ride out the politics for a few months of "shareholder activism" and its business as normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Just an idea from left field:- Over a period of time we have had a number of posts where people have tried to advise of the purpose of a Company board as distinct from the purpose of the transactional team headed by the CEO down. Im not sure that everyone here, or indeed perhaps all of the sitting board members and the operational team understand the distinction and the extent of their associated responsibilities in law and under the constitution. The net result is probably that we have a board that doesnt (as a whole group) understand its responsibilities and similarly a transactional team (certainly head of transactional team) that doesnt understand where its powers start and stop and under what circumstances it leads and under what circumstances it must follow. In the comemrcial world, certainly the larger end that I work in, and RAA by nature of its annual revenues needs to address this in the same way IMHO, directors can not be directors unless they have an appropriate education and experience to do so. In our environment we pick board members based on personal statements and I dont recall anyone (perception statement, not a statement of fact) ever talking about having completed a directors course or being a member of the profesional body representing company directors. Now, all that may well be a bit much to hope for in the membership, but is it too much to hope for that once appointed to the board then RAA fund an appropriate education for board members. It may be that we do this now and I just dont know about it. If the board and the CEO were absolutely aware of the boundaries in which they must operate, and the personal obligations required of them, then the required heroic activities of new electees, which it seems have been unable to apply that immeasurable force to the inmoveable object seem destined to repeat failure, where a full understanding based on formal education may have prevented the outcome that it seems had to occur. I found myself suggesting caution last time around and ended up with Turbo and others butting heads with me, I find myself much more in their corner this time. I wonder how many good people with grand ideas of change that absolutely deserve consideration within an agreed framework of management must be sacrificed before whatever is wrong is addressed and constrained. As said previously I will wait for more details and wont speculate on the details of this occurence, however I will say that turn over statistics shows there is very much a problem, (we seem to be loosing them faster than the bielections are occuring!!!) and I believe that the fundamental problem must be addressed or it will continue in the same vein until we fumble our way into some liability position that has a poor outcome. Bottom line, it is time for each and everyone of you to do the research, talk to the current remaining board members and perhaps just as importantly the ex board members and start to try and get a feel for what is wrong and what the underlying issue is. Perhaps I can hear Turbo headbutting the wall, saying its well overdue......and maybe so it is. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Bottom line, it is time for each and everyone of you to do the research, talk to the current remaining board members and perhaps just as importantly the ex board members and start to try and get a feel for what is wrong and what the underlying issue is. Perhaps I can hear Turbo headbutting the wall, saying its well overdue......and maybe so it is. Andy Just to make it easier... here are their contact details... Elected State Representatives The representatives form the 13-member RA-Aus Board. The President, Treasurer and Secretary form the Board Executive. Tasmania Eugene Reid 03 6382 4700 Northern Territory (Vacant pending by-election) South Australia Ed Herring 0408 787 018 New South Wales Paul Middleton (Secretary) 02 6454 2347 Michael Apps 0412 435 198 (1 position vacant due resignation) North Queensland Steve Runciman (President) 0405 640 689 South Queensland John McKeown 0438 728 311 Myles Breitkreutz07 4937 1170 Nick Sigley 0421 821 654 Victoria Rod Birrell 03 9744 1305 (1 position vacant due resignation) Western Australia Gavin Thobaven 0413 956 489 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 And for those that dont have access to the latest magazine (which contains the contact details for those that are very recently departed) (NSW) Don Ramsay (Treasurer) 0418257793 or dramsay47 (inc the normal at sign) westnet.com.au (Vic) Bill Cain 0419727077 or wlcain (inc the normal at sign) bigpond.com (I have edited this post to disguise the email addresses in order to prevent spam - Ian) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Is it time to call in ASIC or similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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