Working Party for 2nd Organisation

[Admin]

Hi All

 

I am fielding more and more phone calls and emails regarding the desire to establish a 2nd organisation for recreational aviators. A few weeks ago I posted this post:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/raaus-fails-casa-audit-again.50744/page-6#post-251668

 

in saying that I had commenced nearly a year ago to look into what is required to do so as I had not only been bringing to your attention for some years now of a pending failure of RAAus but also a means to protect the industry as competition WILL make the parties lift their game and stop treating us with contempt.

 

The writing was on the wall when this happened at a board meeting:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/raaus-fails-casa-audit-again.50744/page-19#post-252903

 

and I thought that if the board had so little respect for CASA then what is likely to end up happening if something even more serious were to happen...and YES, it has and YES we have now seen the result of that attitude...Note, the then President was Eugene Reid (now Treasurer) and Middleton was on the board (now Secretary).

 

So, I ask you, what are your real thoughts on forming a 2nd organisation to look after our recreational aviation needs? Do we at least form a working a party to explore this further even knowing that by the time anything could come to fruition the registration issues would probably be resolved. Would it be a waste of time, would it do more harm to our industry or will it ensure that having competition between two entities that we will never be in a position like this again, would it force more communication and the lifting of both organisation's game in the way they are run and deal with members, would we all benefit by having a choice etc etc etc.

 

If you want to organise a working party then let me know and I will pass the papers on to the group. There are a lot of pros and cons with this but if you are serious then this web site will assist you in any way possible as we are all together in recreational flying

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Personally I don't see a need for a second organisation. Starting from scratch you'd need to develop a Tech Manual and Ops Manual (you could simply pinch the RA-Aus ones but there's an issue of IP theft of course), develop the relationship with CASA to get approval to administer a class of aircraft, have CAOs written that enable it, and so on. It takes months for a commercial operator to get an AOC out of CASA, imagine how long it would take for this!

 

On top of that you'd then need to answer the question to CASA - why can you do it better than RA-Aus? This would mean developing systems and processes that would be subject to close scrutiny by CASA (and rightly so). You'd then have to respond to those areas where they say the processes aren't compliant (and let's face it, you're not going to nail it straight away). You'd have to gather support for membership, issue licences (which would create it's own set of hassles - would you recognise RA-Aus certificates and how would you validate them?). You'd have to register aircraft (using the aforementioned processes). You'd have to get training organisations on board. Of course you'll need staff to administer all of this.

 

RA-Aus is broken but is not dead. With a proper system of governance and management in place my view is that it could be resurrected and well on its way to something even better over the next twelve months. In reality these issues are not going to disappear with the year, it will take a lot of work, but it will be less work than starting from scratch. There's a great admin team waiting for some guidance and direction, thy're just not getting it from the current board and management. Putting some effort into solving that problem would reap some real rewards I reckon...

 

 

[ave8rr]

Ian, Why can't we follow the NZ line. Works with two organisations very well.

 

Have CASA take over the aircraft registrations (VH-xxx) of ALL aircraft in Aus.

 

This would ease the current problems we have with "Registrations". If run by CASA then it must be right!

 

If CASA want to distinguish between GA and Ultralight registrations then have all ultralights as VH-U(uniform)xxx or something similar although this does not happen across the ditch.

 

As in NZ register the aircraft as class 1 (single seat) or class 2 (two seat) ultralights with an up to 600KG MTOW.

 

As in NZ allow training in class 2 wether amateur built or factory built as long as the engine etc is not out of the manufacturers stated TBO.

 

Pilot certificates can still be issued by either RAAus or a second organisation. In NZ this is RAANZ or SAC.

 

RAANZ is more like RAAus and SAC a company type set up.

 

Aircraft maintenance is still done by the owner IF he wishes and an annual inspection is carried out by a RAANZ or SAC authorised inspector a bit like our L2 etc.

 

There is NO annual fee for registration however there is an airways "activity" fee of around $100.00 PA I believe payable to NZCAA as the Safety Authority.

 

My pennies worth

 

Cheers

 

 

[Compulsion]

I agree with ave8rr on this. I think it would be a mammoth task to start from scratch and get a second organization up and running.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I can't see any other option. Ill start work on the software

 

 

[old man emu]

While I can see that some would have the desire to establish another organisation to administer what the RAAus was expected to administer, I'd say that setting up another organisation would be reinventing the wheel.

 

Examined closely, I'd say that the current policies and procedures of the RAAus are suitable for it to carry out the authorities that CASA has given it to deal with the classes of aircraft and pilot competencies that are involved in this end of the aviation spectrum. What appears to stand out like a sore thumb is that the Management of these policies and procedures has been neglected. I'd like to think that the office staff of RAAus are conscientous workers who try to deal with the day-to-day as efficiently as possible. However, there can be a number of reasons why their efficiency could have dropped. Chief amongst these reasons is a failure of upper management to monitor the application of policies and procedures on a regular basis and to act to correct short-comings.

 

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THE CEO HAD THE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM AUDITED?

 

It's all well and good to have the financials audited to see that money is not being wasted, but the money won't be there to waste if the paperwork is not being done.

 

I'd agree that the RAAus is broken, but I know it can be fixed. Employ a Business Manager who manages the business. Have an elected Board whose task it is to develop policies for the Association itself, and propositions to put to CASA to progress the aims and goals of RAAus (which are what?)

 

Take a look at the Federal Government. No matter which Party is the Government, and which is the Opposition, the Public Service keeps beavering away delivering the services it is authorised to deliver. The elected members of Parliament can play their Power Games as much as they like, but in the end, Public Service still enables the People still get what they need to carry on their day-to-day lives. And the People get to chuck out those elected members who don't perform.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Guest john]

Hi AllI am fielding more and more phone calls and emails regarding the desire to establish a 2nd organisation for recreational aviators. A few weeks ago I posted this post:

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/raaus-fails-casa-audit-again.50744/page-6#post-251668

 

in saying that I had commenced nearly a year ago to look into what is required to do so as I had not only been bringing to your attention for some years now of a pending failure of RAAus but also a means to protect the industry as competition WILL make the parties lift their game and stop treating us with contempt.

 

The writing was on the wall when this happened at a board meeting:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/raaus-fails-casa-audit-again.50744/page-19#post-252903

 

and I thought that if the board had so little respect for CASA then what is likely to end up happening if something even more serious were to happen...and YES, it has and YES we have now seen the result of that attitude...Note, the then President was Eugene Reid (now Treasurer) and Middleton was on the board (now Secretary).

 

So, I ask you, what are your real thoughts on forming a 2nd organisation to look after our recreational aviation needs? Do we at least form a working a party to explore this further even knowing that by the time anything could come to fruition the registration issues would probably be resolved. Would it be a waste of time, would it do more harm to our industry or will it ensure that having competition between two entities that we will never be in a position like this again, would it force more communication and the lifting of both organisation's game in the way they are run and deal with members, would we all benefit by having a choice etc etc etc.

 

If you want to organise a working party then let me know and I will pass the papers on to the group. There are a lot of pros and cons with this but if you are serious then this web site will assist you in any way possible as we are all together in recreational flying

Hi Ian

 

I know it is easy to be wise after the event & to say I told you so, however I pass on the following comments respectfully & humbly.

 

When Eugene Read was President, I could forsee the demise of our organiusation going downhill the same way that GA had gone & sent him an email telling him that the RAAus was on the path of self destruction.

 

He didn't want to accept what he was being told, probably because he knew better & didn't want to be told by me as a little person about the downhill slide.

 

When you tell people in high places what is actually happening at the coal face , for the betterment of the organisation which you are a member of, the people in these high places often won't listen to little people like me because they think that they are above everbody else, & one gets the feeling that you have wasted your breath & have pixxed into the wind , however when the shxt eventually hits the fan, these so called high profile people shxt in their own nest, but will not admit their arrogance , negligence & incompetence but will always try to blame some underdog & give POLITICIANS ANSWERS to questions they have to address about their own failures.

 

I pass this information onto us all so that we as the rank & file members of the RAAus can work together even though we may have differences, for the betterement of our organisation.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think we are on to about 11 threads so far with everything being addressed except the key issues which are grounding aircraft right now.

 

I'm not surprised that many people are confused.

 

There may well be a time to talk about this, but that's when there's a reasonable lead time available which would not see pilots grounded.

 

 

[Captain]

Ian,

 

I worry about dividing the effort to sort this RAA mess out.

 

My efforts are concentrated on highlighting the deficiencies of the present organisation and working hard, with others, to fix the existing terrible communication, management and governance practices.

 

In my considered opinion that is how the problems can easiest be solved and how the members would best be advantaged.

 

If the members don't give a rats, or choose to stay with the present systems, after the requisitioned GM then I will respect that, as the wishes of the membership is what matters in all of this.

 

But if the issues are highjacked politically and/or if ratsh*t management, poor practices and grotty governance continue I will lean towards the formation of a competing organisation if CASA will also endorse that structure.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Admin]

Guys...As I highlighted I am receiving many phone calls and emails about establishing a 2nd organisation and thus felt I should bring it "out" for you to discuss as a whole rather then phone calls and emails to me.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Reducing the RAA in size will actually be a good thing for it, a lot of its problems stem from its rapid growth. The problem the RAA faces now is the changes that need to go through the RAA will take time.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A number of people have suggested the present issues were caused by rapid growth - BULLSH$T!!!

 

Please do not attempt to minimise the serious circumstances caused simply by failure to put management procedures in place and employ the appropriate people qualified to process the amount of work.

 

I have not read any criticism of the staff who process pilot renewals, only glowing reports of how helpful they are.

 

If we just look at the 3000 member increase from when we were discussing issues 18 months ago, that's an income increase of $561,000.00 which could progressively have been allocated to additional processing staff if that was the issue.

 

If that was the issue and the board of management had been open and transparent, volunteers cold quickly be drafted to identify the issues, and plan resolutions.

 

Please don't parrot garbage which just sounds good.

 

 

[Riley]

I reckon that it's more productive to eradicate weeds, fix the fences and spread some super on a tired paddock than it is to walk off the farm and go back to the bush to clear and break new land. The ever-increasing upsurge of member awareness and involvement in forcing the changes required to get RAA back on track has the potential to give us (thru worthy area reps) far more participation in the controlling of our sport than we have ever held. To side-track or devote the talent & efforts of the 'marvelous malcontents' (David I, Andy, Cap'n Rat, Nev, Turbs and the rest) in a parallel movement at this time has an identifiable down-side in that the current non-productive portion of the Board would be handed a get-out-of-jail-free card while continuing to retain the brief fm Casa to oversee/overlook our future freedoms. I suggest that any and all immediate efforts by we concerned members would be best exerted towards planning and achieving a meaningful agreement (ultimatum if necessary) with that part of the Board at the Feb meeting that convinces the proletariat of their ability and intention to serve the movement as it should be. RAA is bruised, it's bent, it's a bit broken but it ain't totally buggered and it can be fixed once we get some good people in place to change the Board ideology that's evolved over the past decade. So I gotta give a New Movement the 'thumbs down' but I congratulate, laud and give a 'Thumbs Up" to every one who is participating in forcing a more responsible 'New RAA' management style.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

how about: the current Exec and CEO will probably do so much damage to the RAA before they finish with it that it will take years to sort out? Its also much easier to do things when you are a small organisation.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

If you aren't interested in getting involved don't read this thread

 

 

[Bandit12]

I think the option of a second organisation needs to be discussed. There are many who just don't care as long as they get to fly (although that has been threatened lately). There are a number who are keen to fix what is there, and that is a very admirable position to take. However, I'm sure there are a number who are past believing that the situation can be fixed, or who just aren't prepared to trust RA-Aus again. Turbs, you yourself made your position quite clear when you mentioned that you had not continued your membership and I am sure there will be others who will choose that if it is a viable option for them. But an alternative is never a bad option to have.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I understand where you're all coming from, but it's a little like standing on the deck of the Titanic and discussing the design of a better ship.

 

Depending how many aircraft are grounded now and will be grounded daily, and particularly how many importers will have to find hundreds of thousands of dollars to find unsaleable stock, and how many flying clubs will be grounded within the next month or so the logistics of getting into the air don't look good.

 

I really shouldn't object to you talking about it, but where I was coming from was that people are going to quickly change from "couldn't care less" to a critical mass which will very quickly force changes at RAA which will reverse the problems. Talking about another body will distract them, and may spoil the chances of fixing what's broke, as did the half dozen or so who threw spokes into the wheels whenever they could 18 months ago.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

TP: if you are in, you are in.

 

This the biggest issue in can think off at the moment.

 

I am wondering how the legality of having an RFA pilot in an RAA aircraft or vica versa works. Assuming that both organisations offer valid licences and aircraft registration.

 

Cause if we can get a bunch of people to switch to RFA for plane reg. things will go well.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There you go FT - complications already.

 

I don't see why CASA should have its fingers into a self administering body anyway; DIT is not involved in motor sports.

 

 

[Pete Greed]

I personally think the "second" organisation should be the old one revamped. After all when you strip down the old version and determine whats wrong and replace the bits that are buggered, or have worn out, the results can be as good as new. And you know what, it can be done in the same way many of us maintain our own aircraft - having basic mechanical training and call in the specialist for the bits that are too technical.

 

The membership base will remain the same, the contract with CASA as well. Just need to bring the operation up to best practice in keeping with the size and scope of what is a growing community business.

 

Pete

 

 

[dazza 38]

There you go FT - complications already.I don't see why CASA should have its fingers into a self administering body anyway; DIT is not involved in motor sports.

They way I see it, CASA already do . They issue PPL licences and they register Private Pilot's aircraft that are used for recreation and private use.

And the pilots dont have to be a member of any association & the associated costs that go with that..

 

 

[Mark11]

I'm glad HGFA are looking after Microlights also...

 

 

[Ultralights]

Ring the FAA in the USA, pay a licence fee, copy the part 103 of the FARs or relevent documents, replace FAA with the new acronym for the new organisation.. done...

 

i do believe its pretty much what the NZ CAA has done when it came to reform, something CASA has taken nearly 25 yrs to do....

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

CASA can't make rules for it if it ain't classed as an aircraft. FAR103 are recreational vehicles.

 

 

[ave8rr]

I am wondering how the legality of having an RFA pilot in an RAA aircraft or vica versa works. Assuming that both organisations offer valid licences and aircraft registration.

Cause if we can get a bunch of people to switch to RFA for plane reg. things will go well.

VH registration for "everything" and problem goes away. I understand we already have a problem with HGFA people not being aloud to fly RAAus registered aircraft and visa versa. I can be corrected on this.