Video: Airplane engine failure during take off and turn back for landing (practice)

[Compulsion]

I don't think I will ever stop seeing the image of a replica Spitfire roll over and go in vertically at an air show. Every time I get low and slow in a circuit I remember it. Hopefully that will make me fly safer and remain aware.

 

 

[ozbear]

Stall airspeed rises as a result of wing loading. Actually, the whole polar moves to the right as wing loading increases. If you fly at best L/D for the current wing loading there is no chance of a stall.

You can stall at any airspeed if you exceed the critical angle of attack . I agree with some of what your saying but in my opinion that footage is not suitable for low time pilots/students.

 

 

[facthunter]

Power pilots concept of flying at best L/D is limited. IT IS important at times ( holding and ranging and power off etc) Gliding is another matter where it rates as a high priority all the time since it is directly linked to performance. A lot of power pilots would not know what the speed for L/D was as it's so linked to actual weight at the time, and many don't vary the speed on approach with weight variation. Nev

 

 

[Exadios]

Boy watching that ground come up in the turn bought back some bad memories for me. I was in a 182 that tried that and didn't make it, lost two good friends that day...not a flash manoeuvre, and one fraught with danger !.............Maj...

The visual in the movie is one that I have seen many times before so I do not find it disturbing.

 

I'm guessing that the crash you are talking of was caused by the pilot making a decision made after the engine failed. The decision made before the failure is the best one and should not be changed.

 

There are some aircraft for which a turn back is never an option. Most Cessnas are in this category.

 

 

[Exadios]

Decision time is the time it takes you to consider everything and start some action. The accelerate stop thing is pretty clear. Up to V1 you stop and after you GO. Your problem is assessing all the factors and how important they are. While you normally go after V1 if there was a loud explosion from somewhere the ability of the plane to fly at all might be suspect as there could be structural damage, so you might take your chances with stopping on the ground, and let the armchair theorists take a month or so to tell you, you were (technically) wrong. Nev

The V1 rule is an example of a decision made before to the engine failure that is to be executed after the engine failure. But it is not the only decision to be made. In fact the pilot should be asking him / her self for the whole flight, "If it all goes wrong, what is my course of action?"

 

Actually the whole V1 thing assumes that there is enough engine to get to V2 - and beyond. On singles this may not be the case.

 

 

[Exadios]

Power pilots concept of flying at best L/D is limited. IT IS important at times ( holding and ranging and power off etc) Gliding is another matter where it rates as a high priority all the time since it is directly linked to performance. A lot of power pilots would not know what the speed for L/D was as it's so linked to actual weight at the time, and many don't vary the speed on approach with weight variation. Nev

It is something that needs to be learned, if not before the engine fails, then very quickly after. It is this skill that will get the pilot back onto the ground. A power plane without a working engine is nothing more than a glider with poor performance.

 

The speed for straight and level L/D is the speed for best climb. If in doubt fly the speed for best climb at MTOW. Also most operating manuals give a "Max. Glide Speed" (i.e. the speed to be flown to achieve max. distance) which may also be the engine out landing speed. At 45 deg multiply this speed by root(2) (i.e. approx 1.5). The polar varies as the square root of wind loading and so is not so sensitive to weight as you may think.

 

What you seem to be saying in your post is that pilot training is inadequate. Fortunately, as the video shows, this is not universal.

 

 

[Exadios]

You can stall at any airspeed if you exceed the critical angle of attack . I agree with some of what your saying but in my opinion that footage is not suitable for low time pilots/students.

Surely a pilot should not go solo until he / she can handle emergencies.

 

 

[ozbear]

Surely a pilot should not go solo until he / she can handle emergencies.

I totally agree and armed with sound knowledge and training .Maybe a ballistic chute as well in case the turn back after EFATO goes wrong.

 

 

[facthunter]

Maintaining CONTROL of the plane is essential whatever you do. With a fairly low speed stall plane you continue more or less ahead and into wind. You have a very good chance of living with no serious injury. Turn back and get it wrong and the bad possibilities start to come at you, with a good outcome not very assured . Nev

 

 

[ozbear]

Aviate,navigate,communicate

 

 

[Exadios]

Maintaining CONTROL of the plane is essential whatever you do. With a fairly low speed stall plane you continue more or less ahead and into wind. You have a very good chance of living with no serious injury. Turn back and get it wrong and the bad possibilities start to come at you, with a good outcome not very assured . Nev

The purpose of the training shown in the video is to practise maintaining control of the plane.

 

Flying is about making decisions. As any pilot who has landed in a paddock will know landing out is far more dangerous than landing on a runway. So the question becomes will the aircraft be above the required glide slope after a 180 degree turn. If yes and the runway is clear and the downwind is not too great then a runway landing is preferred. If the pilot is not sure that these three conditions are met then paddock (or road - parking lot etc) ahead is generally the only decision that can be made.

 

 

[ozbear]

The purpose of the training shown in the video is to practise maintaining control of the plane.Flying is about making decisions. As any pilot who has landed in a paddock will know landing out is far more dangerous than landing on a runway. So the question becomes will the aircraft be above the required glide slope after a 180 degree turn. If yes and the runway is clear and the downwind is not too great then a runway landing is preferred. If the pilot is not sure that these three conditions are met then paddock (or road - parking lot etc) ahead is generally the only decision that can be made.

I totally agree with that

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Maintaining CONTROL of the plane is essential whatever you do. With a fairly low speed stall plane you continue more or less ahead and into wind. You have a very good chance of living with no serious injury. Turn back and get it wrong and the bad possibilities start to come at you, with a good outcome not very assured . Nev

Quotes from the 'crash comic' report, on the fatal turn-back accident that I was a passenger in..........

 

" The terrain sourrounding the Batchelor airport is generally level but thickly timbered by small trees and scrub, with virtually no open space in which a forced landing could be accomplished without damaging the aircraft. Thus a loss of power soon after take-off would have placed the pilot in a very difficult situation. In fact unless it was possible to get the aircraft safely back on the strip, an accident of some sort was inevitable. For this reason the urge to try and do so was no doubt very compelling.

 

However in the course of the step gliding turn necessary to return to the runway, it is apparent the aircraft stalled, there was no possibility of recovering control in the height available, and it struck the ground in a step nose-down attitude.

 

However poor the prospects were for a forced landing in this case, they could only become much worse once a loss of control had occurred. On the other hand, had controlled flight been maintained, even if this ment a landing in the trees, the accident may well have been much less severe.

 

Accident experience accumulated in Australia over the last 20 years seems to indicate that a 'ditching ' into tree tops, especially one that is controlled and accomplished at the minimum possible airspeed, offers a good chance of avoiding serious injury.

 

Without any doubt it is a far better risk that the uncontrolled, much more violent type of impact that usually follows a stall at low level.."...... Maj....

 

 

[rgmwa]

I notice in the video that his prop is still turning at 1000-1200 rpm during the turnback. Wonder how well he'd manage with a dead engine in the same situation?

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Rgmwa, Good point....quite a difference really. Dead stick is pretty definite, your going down !..........Maj...

 

 

[ozbear]

I notice in the video that his prop is still turning at 1000-1200 rpm during the turnback. Wonder how well he'd manage with a dead engine in the same situation?rgmwa

The thing is the drag created by a dead engine can be higher especially a seized engine with the prop not turning.

 

 

[rgmwa]

The thing is the drag created by a dead engine can be higher especially a seized engine with the prop not turning.

Yes, that's what I meant. Could be quite a different outcome with the added prop drag, unless he had more height to begin with.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Exadios]

The thing is the drag created by a dead engine can be higher especially a seized engine with the prop not turning.

That's true. I image that this exercise is done close to the ground to give the student the visual and a sense of urgency.

 

Otherwise, with a data logger, the whole exercise can be done at a safe altitude - say 5000' - with a real dead engine.

 

 

[facthunter]

Somewhat surprisingly a rotating prop MAY have more drag than a stopped one. ( especially a C/S in fine pitch, where they go when the oil pressure is low/zero). Nev