Camit engines - anyone got one?

[Jaba-who]

Thinking very seriously about either swapping or upgrading my near 500 hour 3300 engine for a camit version.

 

Anyone got a camit engine and what do you think about it?

 

John.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

What for John?

 

Just interested as mine has similar hours, but going strong.

 

Phil

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I guess I'm at the point where lots of engines seem to have trouble. I have done some straw polls and following the various websites, forums etc and there seems to be a more common timeframe at which people seem to have trouble - namely around the 400 hours mark. None of this is found in any statistically reliable study but just from what I seem to be able to come up with in talking to people.

 

I fly over a lot of tiger country and it has started to pray on my mind a bit.

 

Mine is going strong too. My leakdowns are all over 70, had the through bolts replaced by Jabiru monitor all cylinders for CHT and ERGHT and all are good.

 

But still in the back of my mind is a little bit of a germ of concern.

 

Read some stuff and spoke with someone who has done the research and is also thinking about it and it seems to address the vast majority of the areas where I am concerned. Emailled and got reply from Camit and it seems like a reasonable path to take, except that it will cost either $14K or $18K to effect either rebuild or buy a brand new engine.

 

John

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Thanks for the explanation John.

 

Following this forum like I do, I too had Some doubts mainly due to three or so Jab knockers over time.

 

I Fly regularly X country so was a fair bit concerned until I realised it was the same bods canning the Jab

 

Over it now.

 

Aside from that,I have always had the 100 hourly done by a level 2 LAME and apart from a valve lap in and general observation, leak down tests etc, I am a happy chappie

 

I hope that you will get more confidence in your craft as I have

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

[John M]

What for John?Just interested as mine has similar hours, but going strong.

Phil

Phil:

My first Jab 2200 was an early Hyd Lifter type that was more a boat anchor than a reliable aircraft engine. At 200 hours the valve guides were all worn and replaced on warranty. This was caused by the fact that the crankcase pressure would not allow the oil in the rocker box to flow back down into the crancase and so it just cooked into carbon.

 

My west coast distributor replaced the valve guides but he should have replaced the valves also since badly worn guides allow the valves to hit the seat slightly off center causing stress on the valve just beneath the head.

 

So at 585 hours the number 2 exhaust valve head broke free and distroyed the piston and bent the rod. I dead sticked back to my home field.

 

The engine was rebuilt by the same dealer and after 60 seconds of run up it threw a rod up through the case and into the starter motor.

 

Of course, I was pissed, but the dealer made me an offer I couldn't reuse on a brand new on with all the needed upgrades ( different cam, crank case, lifters, fly wheel pins, etc) so I was placated.

 

My current Jab 2200 (s/n 3237 has 890 hours on it with absolutely no minor or major issues except for hard starting in cold weather which was corrected when I moved the battery from behind my seat to up front on the fire wall. However, I did notice some carbon blackening near the exhaust valve springs on the rear two pistons. I took the head off and found the guides to be just out of the widest spec.

 

My friend has the equipment to bore out the existing guides 30 thousands and insert guide sleeves. I ordered 4 new exhaust valves at $50 each. I used Aeroshell greese with molydnum disulfide at 20% on the stems and rocker bushings.

 

The engine has 5 hours on it since this was done and is running strong. This should easily get me to the recommended 1000 hour top and beyond.

 

The compression is good.

 

JohnM

 

 

[metalman]

Thinking very seriously about either swapping or upgrading my near 500 hour 3300 engine for a camit version.Anyone got a camit engine and what do you think about it?

John.

A mate has a Cammit engine in his 230(I think) ,I'll be very keen to see how it performs,or doesn't , as I'm looking for more HP for a future project,

Matty

 

 

[Oscar]

John M: you might like to know that CAMit have a 'solid lifter' conversion kit that you can retrofit to a hydraulic lifter engine; if you also add the new CAMit revised-geometry rocker arms that reduce the side-loading on the valve stems and the el-neato CAMit rocker arm bushes, you'll have a pretty good top end on that motor of yours. I was up at CAMit when a US owner who had just fitted the solid lifter conversion kit wrote back reporting on it, and as I remember, he told Ian Bent that if he could just get out to Australia, he'd kiss his (Ian's) 'rosy red butt', he has so happy with the results. At least one 3300 'new' CAMit engine is in the US, so you may be able to get from CAMit some contact details for a 'local' report on it.

 

Jaba: I believe there are at least 8 CAMit re-builds/new currently flying and gaining hours; CAMit may well be able to provide contact details (if the owners are happy for that, obviously). Since you're running a J430, I assume that it's VH-reg and running the certificated engine?. You may need to wait until the CAMit engine has achieved certification to be able to use it, but that hopefully won't be too far away. In the meantime, if all your engine temps are (and always have been) consistently good and you don't get caught with a load of bad fuel, there seem to be plenty of experiences of people happily getting way over that '400 hours' figure without trouble - I agree that the forums etc. paint a somewhat disturbing picture, but mostly it's people who have bad experiences that are moved to publicise them - after all, 'dog doesn't bite man' tends to be a non-issue..

 

That said, I think it is very realistic for you to be cautious - for sure, it only takes one over-temp situation to start a chain of deterioration in Jab. engines and not even the most one-eyed fan of them can dismiss the fact that they are less than stone-axe reliable if that happens. I've followed the various forum threads re Jab. engines assiduously, and it's noticeable that some owners have a series of way-too-early failures, while others (including some commercial operators) have happy experiences, and over more than just one engine, so it's not completely a lucky-dip. The factors here may well be a combination of things, such as not only how carefully they are operated and maintained, but even the reliability of good fuel delivery to the home airfield, even down to some seemingly insignificant difference in the cooling airflow set-up between aircraft.

 

There is not enough research done into the circumstances of the failures to provide rock-solid guidance as to what will cause the problems and Jabiru do neither themselves nor the owners any favours by tending to dismiss all problems as 'bad operation' instead of trying to do a bit more forensic examination and determine what combination of circumstances actually led to the failure. CAMit has done a heap of work in that area and taken the approach that working on the 'chain' of interlinked factors that can lead to failure produces more robustness all along the chain - they try to remove ANY 'weak links' in that chain. Quite a bit of that work is rather subtle in nature; it's a bit of a hike, I realise, from Cairns to Bundaberg but if you have an excuse to head south, I'd absolutely recommend spending a bit of time at CAMit and they guys there will explain how it all fits together, and I'll put a $ on the bar that you'll leave pretty confident in your ability to decide whether splashing the cash for the CAMit motor is worth it.

 

 

[Russ]

As soon as they are "certified" I will be ordering one....no if's or buts about it.

 

2nd wish.... Would love a cert comp prop on my 160c as well.

 

3rd wish.....stop me leaking doors ( work in progress )

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Oscar wrote. "Since you're running a J430, I assume that it's VH-reg and running the certificated engine?. You may need to wait until the CAMit engine has achieved certification to be able to use it, but that hopefully won't be too far away. "

 

It's vh registered in the experimental class ( as all j 430s must be in Oz) so it can have any engine you want - certified or not. The only bureaucratic type thing needed would be a re-weight and balance then a new CofA issued by my Authorised Person. ( CASA delegate available through the sport aircraft association of Australia ) this may involve some time spent doing phase 1 testing again ( certain number of hours solo in certain radius of home airport)

 

So it really a cost issue more than anything but might also be some time spent tweaking it back up to speed again.

 

 

[JabSP6]

John

 

I haven't been on this site for quite some time but i did come accross your post yeaterday.

 

I have fitted one of Camit's new solid lifter 6 cyl motors into my SP6 in August last year. I have now just clicked up 160 hrs on the motor without any issues at all.

 

I do monitor all CHT's and EGT's and so far the only movement in the Valve train was at the first service and it was only .001 on 2 of the valve clearances and .002 on 1 of the valve clearances.

 

Since then all the head bolts are checked without having any movement and all the valve clearances remain spot on. Oil usage is neglegable between 25 hr services. No more oil pumping out into the catch can and all under the plane.

 

As Oscar has mentioned there are a lot of things that Ian has developed over time to improve these motors but has not been able to implement any of these into the Jabiru supplied engine for various reasons.

 

Ian is now offering the improvements in both 4 cyl and 6 cyl motors supplied direct from Camit.

 

I also would highly recomend that you take the time to give Ian a call or even better if you are ever down this way drop in and see him.

 

Safe Flying

 

Andrew

 

(JabSP6)

 

 

[Oscar]

I understand that Ian Bent is taking two example engines down to Natfly, and (presumably) will have samples on hand of some of the natty stuff that CAMit are doing, such as the alternator kits, the new rockers and rocker bushes, and hopefully his new through-bolts as well to display. He's one of the most approachable and informative people I know and I am sure that anybody even vaguely interested in the CAMit developments will find it very instructive indeed to look at what he has to show and talk to him about what (and especially WHY) CAMit have done by way of changes.

 

If you are a Jab. engine owner - especially if your engine is starting to put on the hours and replacement / overhaul is on the horizon - if it were me and I could possibly get the Natfly and see the stuff and talk to Ian, I think you will find the time to do that will be time you'll find extremely rewarding. Ian can tell you more about Jabiru engines in ten minutes than you are likely to get from any other source in a year of seeking information and trying to make sense of the varying opinions and experiences of users.

 

 

[Camel]

JohnI haven't been on this site for quite some time but i did come accross your post yeaterday.

I have fitted one of Camit's new solid lifter 6 cyl motors into my SP6 in August last year. I have now just clicked up 160 hrs on the motor without any issues at all.

 

I do monitor all CHT's and EGT's and so far the only movement in the Valve train was at the first service and it was only .001 on 2 of the valve clearances and .002 on 1 of the valve clearances.

 

Since then all the head bolts are checked without having any movement and all the valve clearances remain spot on. Oil usage is neglegable between 25 hr services. No more oil pumping out into the catch can and all under the plane.

 

As Oscar has mentioned there are a lot of things that Ian has developed over time to improve these motors but has not been able to implement any of these into the Jabiru supplied engine for various reasons.

 

Ian is now offering the improvements in both 4 cyl and 6 cyl motors supplied direct from Camit.

 

I also would highly recomend that you take the time to give Ian a call or even better if you are ever down this way drop in and see him.

 

Safe Flying

 

Andrew

 

(JabSP6)

I remember reading about your modifications to your 3300 jab engine, including the through bolts you got from WA. What happened to this engine ? Or is this it ?

 

 

[JabSP6]

Hi Camel

 

I had a Crankshaft break just in front of the rear journal. Ian did some investigating into the cause of the failure for me. It turns out there was a stress point at the rear journal which had originated from a previous valve failure causing the value to hit piston number 2 at around 750hrs. When the initial valve failure occured part of the rebuild was sending the Crankshaft, Camshaft and Connecting rods to Archerfield for Testing. The results came back all ok but it turns out the Crank wasn't all ok. So after rebuilding the motor with the Through Bolts from W.A the motor did another 400 hrs until the Crankshaft decided suddenly to separate. After lengthy discussions with Ian we decided to scrap the motor with 1150hrs and put a New Camit engine in.

 

I spent many hrs with Ian going over every single impovement that he has done and why.

 

As mentioned in Oscar's post Ian will be going to Natfly so if anyone has any questions about the new engine that will be your chance to get the answers directly from Ian.

 

You won't be dissapointed.

 

Safe Flying

 

Andrew

 

(JabSP6)

 

 

[Camel]

Hi Andrew

 

Sounds like you have invested some time, money and experience into Jabiru engines. I hope the Camit engine is a great success and hope that Jabiru allow the use of it in its LSA aircraft. As a motor mechanic I am confident that the Camit engine will be a success but I think Jabiru have ruined peoples faith in their brand by their unwillingness to address problems that Camit have addressed. Almost everyone knows that Jabiru have engine problems even if they know nothing about aeroplanes , most articles written about jabiru engines are unfavourable and some aircraft manufacturers are not wanting to use the Jabiru engine, so Camit will have to prove itself and it sounding positive at this point.

 

 

[JabSP6]

Hi Camel

 

I do agree with what you are saying. I have been using my SP6 as a weekly commutor to and from work since September 2009 and plan to do so for many more years to come which is why i have invested so much time and energy into this motor.

 

I am also a Mechanic by trade which is why i looked at improving the motor early on. Ian has since released his Camit engine to the public which addresses all of the issues that he has seen over the last 20 years of making them.

 

I really am impressed with the Jabiru airframe as it is perfect for my situation and now that i have Ian's motor on board i am more then confident in its performance for the future.

 

I believe that Camit will prove themselves with this motor and it will help restore faith in people's minds about the Jabiru Brand.

 

Safe Flying

 

Andrew

 

(JabSP6)

 

 

[deadstick]

I have dealt with cammit and have no problems recommending them to anyone, fast efficient service and no bullshit.

 

 

[Chird65]

Hi Andrew... I think Jabiru have ruined peoples faith in their brand by their unwillingness to address problems that Cammit have addressed. .... and some aircraft manufacturers are not wanting to use the Jabiru engine, so Cammit will have to prove itself and it sounding positive at this point.

And I think this is how Jab can get around the issue. Once Cammit have the legal stuff sorted out then Jab can say we recommend Cammit. Cammit then hold the ability to make changes and Jab no longer have a engine with a bad name.

 

 

[Camel]

And I think this is how Jab can get around the issue. Once Cammit have the legal stuff sorted out then Jab can say we recommend Cammit. Cammit then hold the ability to make changes and Jab no longer have a engine with a bad name.

That's how I see it if jabiru were smart, I don't think jabiru think that way. If I went to Natfly I would heckle jabiru about Camit fixing their engine and them too silly to use it !!!

 

 

[Compulsion]

The problem I have is I can't de register to 19 my 24 Jabiru 170c. I have no options. I have my engine currently in pieces after 400 hrs. I had a problem with no compression in number 2 cylinder when cold. The compression became normal once the engine was warm. My LAME tried everything to fix this issue but had no luck. 4 weeks ago I did a cross country from Gawler to Corny Point and return. On the return from Corny Point I lost oil pressure into the yellow. I diverted to a country strip near by and landed. It turned out the oil reserve was full and the engine took 300ml of oil till it was normal on the dip. I flew back to Gawler looking for paddocks all the way. I watched the gauges all the way home but everything read in the green. On landing another pilot commented that my engine smelt very hot. When the engine cooled it had no compression in any cylinders. The engine had cooked. My LAME is now having to rebuild the top end. I have totally lost all confidence in the engine now and no longer enjoy my flying waiting for it to fail. If I could I would fit anything other than a Jabiru engine.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

4 weeks ago I did a cross country from Gawler to Corny Point and return.

That's sad to hear you are having such strife at 400 hours Comp. I had to look up Corny Point on the map - did you cross part of the gulf to get there?

 

 

[Oscar]

Comp, may I suggest a call to Ian Bent at CAMit, I think he has (or will very shortly have) some very encouraging news for you, if the 'C' in 170C means the Certificated version as per the 160C and therefore may be modified under an EO from a Part 21 engineer. Incidentally - and I am NOT a LAME so this is only an observation - if your engine was seriously cooked, I'd talk to a Jab engine specialist before doing just a top-end overhaul, you may need to split the cases and re-do the silastic, and also possibly replace the through-bolts and nuts.

 

 

[Camel]

Comp, may I suggest a call to Ian Bent at CAMit, I think he has (or will very shortly have) some very encouraging news for you, if the 'C' in 170C means the Certificated.Pretty sure all 170 and 230 are LSA,

 

From jab website......The Jabiru UL-D and J160-C are Type Certified by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).The J120-C, J160-D, J170-D and J230-D are designed and built to ASTM Airworthiness standards. These can be piloted by a RAA certified pilot, to fly up to 10,000' AMSL and outside controlled airspace. An RAA pilot may operate from licensed airports and may also, by endorsement, carry a passenger.

 

Jabiru J170

 

The Jabiru J170 aircraft has been developed as a training aircraft under the Australian LSA (light Sport Aircraft) category. The fuselage is the same as the J160-C using the larger horizontal stabilizer & elevator with the same wing as the J230 . It can be RAA or VH registered.

[Compulsion]

Yes Gnarly. You cross above the restricted area. Only a few minutes and at 4500 you can glide across.

 

 

[facthunter]

Compulsion . You can't fly an aero engine that has compression problems. You probably had excessive blow by and that will vent oil out the breather. You are also down on power and will run at a higher throttle setting to try to compensate. You only further damage the engine and risk your life. It's possible your (hydraulic)? lifter had insufficient clearance and had bottomed out. That would be your initial problem only as it won't cause blow by. Rings (or worse) cause that. Nev

 

 

[deadstick]

Comp,

 

I have seen this on multiple Jabiru engines and to some extent every Jab engine that I have stripped, the culprit historically has been the barrels being out of round from overheating and unequal cooling, the only fix is a full top-end. One engine had only done 100 hours!

 

On a side note, whoever does your topend, ask them to finish hone the cylinders with a dummy head torqued down, another common issue is cylinder distortion at the top of the stroke due to the head bolt torque, I see it on every jab cylinder.