jetjr Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Rotec heads have not been without problems Jabiru never stocked much parts, they were ordered as required from CAE, They have been sourcing some of their newer stuff from elsewhere, not sure of quality, and they are of old designs which have some known problems Certified gear would need to come from supplier able to do so and meet CASA regs on production and that isnt a simple task. By the size of the pile of broken Jab engines in their shed Id suggest they are planning to rebuild them for resale using new heads etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Rotec heads have not been without problems Haven't heard of any except for a difference in rocker fitment between models. But you missed my point, that's one guy who can get a result with cents in the dollar compared to Camit/Jab. Then there's our own untrained forum members who have made successful mods based on logic and experimentation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oksinay Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Last few weeks, wages approx 30k per week. 2.5 - 3.0 engines per week plus a few parts for Jabiru.Little or no parts production by the plant machinists for past month due stock on the shelves awaiting sales/assy. I am told plant was offered to Jabiru some time back but rejected. If the wages account is $30k, then the real cost will be closer to $42k (super, payroll tax, WC insurance, leave accruals, coverage). People are expensive, they need to be either very productive or very high value. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 CASA can't require a firm which is insolvent to produce anything. It's illegal to trade while insolvent in any case. They are also unlikely to allocate funds for such purpose either.. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 If the wages account is $30k, then the real cost will be closer to $42k (super, payroll tax, WC insurance, leave accruals, coverage). . ... and more and a part of the reason a number of companies go offshore. It's not the cost, although that doesn't help, it's the time and expense, as well as employing more people to do it, of attending to all of this rather than concentrating on making product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 A friend of mine said he couldn't purchase the material for the price of the finished parts from China. The last of three big orders was so far off quality he had to make the lot again locally at great speed which close to finished him off. Constant vigilance and oversight required. I saw the first batch and was very impressed with quality, and some tooling that was so weird you would wonder how it could have been produced like that. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 A friend of mine said he couldn't purchase the material for the price of the finished parts from China. The last of three big orders was so far off quality he had to make the lot again locally at great speed which close to finished him off. Yeah, the China thing has been done to death. Simple, unless you're willing to actually live here for a bit and understand how things truly work, stay away. Or contact me, I usually don't charge (and no, I'm not going to help you with a $20, 500 pencil order). I'm guessing, and I genuinely don't know, only guessing, that by now Brumby are probably scratching their heads 2 years down the track, blown time schedules, blow out in costs, can't quite get things done according to plan - sound familiar any Brumby person reading this ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Might be a job for you with Jabiru Bex, history says they need QA oversight there 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Just bought 20 key tags for $1.55 delivered. You saying your not willing to find me cheaper ones...... oh man..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 Haven't heard of any except for a difference in rocker fitment between models.But you missed my point, that's one guy who can get a result with cents in the dollar compared to Camit/Jab. Then there's our own untrained forum members who have made successful mods based on logic and experimentation. The rumour floating around is that there have been a few people who having put them have had enough trouble that they have taken them off again. The problem of one or several people doing a mod and getting results is that often those results are not repeatable on other peoples engines. There is so much variation between set ups. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 The Rotec heads were a good idea in concept, but do have the problem of introducing a new mode of failure to the engine: that being, the electric water pump. The Davies-Craig pump they use (or used, they may have changed?) had somewhat of a reputation for unreliability and not wonderful performance; very few people put them on their cars and some I know who did, got rid of them quite quickly. It also negates the ability of the engine to run without electric power, which is a fundamental requirement under a lot of standards. It's fair to say that Jabiru themselves introduced new problems with the early iteration of Hydraulic tappets. CAMit's developments have never introduced 'new' problems, as far as I am aware (if anybody has different information, I'm happy to accept that if it is properly founded). That takes a lot more thought, research, design care, development and testing than just bolting on something new - particularly when it has to fit an existing 'package'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben87r Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I'm guessing, and I genuinely don't know, only guessing, that by now Brumby are probably scratching their heads 2 years down the track, blown time schedules, blow out in costs, can't quite get things done according to plan - sound familiar any Brumby person reading this ... ? Last I had herd (recently) they were quite happy with how things were going, have invested a lot of time over there getting things rolling. Obviously still in the "changeover" period between local and offshore production so ild imagine that's why (local) lead times are still rather high. Results are yet to be seen but I think their plan will work well...eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Might be a job for you with Jabiru Bex, history says they need QA oversight there Anytime I hear of an Australian company setting up in China I contact them to offer my services and those of my Wife's Law Firm for free. I know what goes on here and I don't want to see Australians getting burnt. That previously included Jabiru and Brumby. Even when a deal is going along ok, many haven't a clue what benefits the Local and National Governments have on offer for Foreign Companies that the Chinese Partners simply pocket, often more valuable than the business itself, and there lay the problem, the Chinese Partners concentrate on those benefits while the manufacturing gets little to no attention and is actually bothersome to the Chinese Partners who prefer that manufacturing side to fail. Round Eye goes home with tail between legs and empty wallet, 2 Wongs make right. Just ask Cessna. If you're a manufacturer with a reputable product currently on the market setting up in China and you spend one cent, then you're doing it wong, errr, wrong. And in some cases you should be in the black even before the first product rolls off the line. I could probably set this up for Camit. Last I had heard (recently) they were quite happy with how things were going, What else would they say. The time period and lack of news suggests to me they are suffering the standard Chinese fare. The Rotec heads were a good idea in concept, but do have the problem of introducing a new mode of failure to the engine: that being, the electric water pump. Trust me, not a Rotec fan, but besides some early heads that had core shift that was rectified, I haven't heard of other issues except for the rocker differences. I believe the Rotec heads have sufficient air cooling to get you down safely if have pump failure. Still seems a better alternate to me than a sticking valve slamming into your piston and throwing away soft heads that have overheated. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I believe the Rotec heads have sufficient air cooling to get you down safely if have pump failure. Still seems a better alternate to me than a sticking valve slamming into your piston and throwing away soft heads that have overheated. CAMit heads were a different - and thermally better - material. Valve seats and guides for the Exhaust valve, were far improved. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 CAMit heads were a different - and thermally better - material. Valve seats and guides for the Exhaust valve, were far improved. Thanks, wasn't aware of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 but it's all water under the bridge now....:crying:And where are those engines (Camit) that have been fitted , then removed? I haven't seen a single one for sale...and if you can belt drive an alternator you sure as hell can belt drive a pump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 gw - I assume that you mean: show me evidence of any CAMit engines that have been fitted then removed? And I also assume - because I know you keep your ear to the ground - that it's a rhetorical question - and very fair. AFAIK, there have been three CAE-plated engines with problems. The first, was the one installed in NZ, that failed and had the celebrated stuff-up take-off from a beach. The failure there, was a kinked fuel delivery line that shut off the fuel; when re-routed, the engine fired up happily enough for the pilot to drive it into the surf.. The second, was failure of the oil lines to the oil cooler: Chinese line that burst. CAMit re-built that engine at no cost to the owner... though the offending Chinese hose was nothing to do with CAMit. The third, was a piston collapse - of a Jabiru-supplied piston with very few hours on it, included in a CAMit re-build of a Jab. engine at the owner's request to save $$. I have first-hand knowledge that Ian Bent did not demand of his customers that they meet his specs., but was happy to deliver to them an engine to their requirements. I HAVE one such engine, so I speak with first-hand experience.. If anybody has direct experience of CAMit engine problems, "let them speak now - or forever hold their peace" - to use a phrase that we all know. As a supporter of CAMit, I think it is very valid that ALL of the owner experiences should be bought out; that allows potential customers to make their own informed decisions. And if that seems ingenuous at this time: I sincerely hope that CAMit will rise from its ashes and that its history will encourage future customers to buy CAMit. 3 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 The third, was a piston collapse - of a Jabiru-supplied piston with very few hours on it, Where was that piston made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 AFAIK, it was one of the batch of 5,000 that Rod had made in China. The ones with the circlip groove machined off centre, that needed re-machining, that then made the standard circlips less than optimal and the replacement circlips were of crap quality and many failed on installation.. There was a Jabiru Service Bulletin about the circlips and how to install them so as not to reduce their tension capability - which would not have been necessary if the re-machined circlip grooves mandated circlips stressed beyond their reasonable loading for installation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEM Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 From Jabiru today Dear Jabiru Fleet, Unfortunately, CAMit, who has been a prime supplier of Jabiru machined parts and who recently started making their own engine based on the Jabiru engine, are reported to have closed and receivers appointed. We had been concerned for some time over the level of debt that the CAMit business carried and have done our best to support them with continuing orders despite the dramatic downturn in sporting aviation following the GFC, the appreciation of the Australian dollar and the significant increase in competition with the introduction of the LSA category aircraft. This is a very sad occurrence as we have always done our best to support Australian businesses. Jabiru has always been structured to be able to withstand the wild swings in economic activity and demand for small sporting aircraft and engines that is the norm in the aviation business. We focus on innovative and cost effective design and manufacture using contracted suppliers who can deliver the quality needed for our engines and airframes and at a price that you can afford. The demise of CAMit is a significant blow to the industry but we have adequate stock on hand to keep you flying and are working to quickly fill the gap in our parts supply chain from suitably qualified factories and suppliers. We are continuing to develop the Jabiru engine to further enhance reliability, reduce maintenance and running costs and to continue to deliver an engine at an affordable price. If you have any questions about your Jabiru engine or airframe please contact us. Happy Landings Jabiru Team 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I can only say - as a supporter of Jabiru - that certain parts of that message are hypocrisy of the first order. The second paragraph is Trump-esque in its disconnection with the truth.. If one is classically Chinese, one would say that there is a special Hell being prepared for its author. As to the rest: as a Jabiru owner I can only hope it is basically true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I can only say - as a supporter of Jabiru - that certain parts of that message are hypocrisy of the first order. The second paragraph is Trump-esque in its disconnection with the truth.. If one is classically Chinese, one would say that there is a special Hell being prepared for its author. Agree Oscar. Orders to CAMit only went one way this year. Can anyone confirm that the aircraft moulds have left Bundy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Orders not just THIS year: three years ago, the CAMit facility set-up to meet Jabiru's demand for 90 engines/month, was running at 10 engines/month. Jabiru orders in 2015, I think, for the second-half-year was for 10 in total.. Jabiru have been developing 'the Chinese engine' for four years now. Square THAT away with: we have always done our best to support Australian businesses. I can't. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 And to sign that statement "Happy landings" was rather insulting.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 the CAMit facility set-up to meet Jabiru's demand for 90 engines/month, was running at 10 engines/month. 1000 engines per year?..................Whomsoever believed that really , really had his head up his arse.....................100 per year, that sounds credible...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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