shafs64 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I have heard that the jab is a good plane. I have never flown one because of the engine issues they have. but that's me I am very choosey about what I will fly.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Well, I suppose somebody has to ask it . . . Why did it fail? Because this thread is a waste of electrons until that information is available. Precisely Daffyd ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Precisely Daffyd ! Apologies Dafydd for the spelling error ....... Maybe I need a few semesters at dazza38 's " School of Grammatical Excellence " Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Well, I suppose somebody has to ask it . . . Why did it fail? Because this thread is a waste of electrons until that information is available. hard to say. I havnt spoken to the operator yet, but I doubt they would know too much. Im not even sure if its one of the school aeroplanes (at a school where I used to work). They had some high time Jab 160's running on avgas in the training environment. Not many other facts about the life of the plane without knowing exactly which one it was. All were LAME maintained, one out of 3 was GA registered. All would be over 1000 hours TT, with none of them being on their original engine. I will talk to the Chief tomorrow and see whats been discovered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Had some interesting discussion with the LAMEs. Seems the Jabiru engine is not exactly their favourite. David Dent and his lads have good reason to have reservations about Jab. engines; I've seen (at least some of) the evidence. However: most of that is - as he will tell you - also evidence of some absolute butchery in rebuilding, not fundamental design. You can blow a hi-spec. Ford V8 engine apart by filling the thing with the wrong fuel - imagine what sort of buggerisation you can do to a Jab. engine by using brute force and wilful ignorance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Oscar We can see what they do to themselves on a regular basis by just putting fuel in them Alf 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Well, I suppose somebody has to ask it . . . Why did it fail? Because this thread is a waste of electrons until that information is available. Can not disagree with your proffering but then again the cylinder stud failure seems to be a common one regardless of outside influences. It's easy to say those outside influences are avoidable and it's not the engine's fault but humans will always be human and will always show up a borderline item through ignorance or stupidity - better to build in a greater safety margin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 OscarWe can see what they do to themselves on a regular basis by just putting fuel in them Alf Well deserving of an "unhelpful", but before I get flamed, moderated or worse, I'll just say that's a nasty knock you've got there Alf. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted July 4, 2014 Author Share Posted July 4, 2014 David Dent and his lads have good reason to have reservations about Jab. engines; I've seen (at least some of) the evidence. However: most of that is - as he will tell you - also evidence of some absolute butchery in rebuilding, not fundamental design. You can blow a hi-spec. Ford V8 engine apart by filling the thing with the wrong fuel - imagine what sort of buggerisation you can do to a Jab. engine by using brute force and wilful ignorance. That may well be the case. Though some engines in the non-certified world are obviously more tolerant of wilful ignorance than others! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 . I believed it to be a joke, had a chuckle and gave it a "funny", sometimes the way people see things can be a reflection of their own lives. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 . However: most of that is - as he will tell you - also evidence of some absolute butchery in rebuilding, not fundamental design. . Interesting comment oscar. Doesnt reflect conversations Ive had with him, and probably about the actual engine which is the star of this thread:). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Well deserving of an "unhelpful", but before I get flamed, moderated or worse, I'll just say that's a nasty knock you've got there Alf. Well gandalph If you think I give 2 hoots about your nasty knock you can be pleased with yourself in knowing as far as I am concerned the engines are the oats after they have been through the horse The knocks I have had with my healthy 31 yo daughter having an aneurism Sunday week ago and now at deaths door I frankly don't give 2 sheets about anything anyone can a will say to me Life sucks Jabiru engines suck And there is no god as far as I am concerned and if there is he can go suck If I get banned for life on here so what I thought I was tough and let me tell you i am not I do not wish on any human what my family have been going through to anyone this last 12 days Do I want sympathy No. I want my innocent beautiful daughter who 12 days ago was sitting at home with her husband and 4 1/2 yo & 15 month old boys back but that is not ever going to happen I will say one thing now I have vented Love your loved ones like you have never loved before because life changes in a second Fly safe because it can leave your loved ones devestated if you think your infallible Trust me I know as I am living every parents nightmare right this minute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DJH Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Your too serious in this instance I recon Turbo. The Jab comments will probably come regardless and that is fine, we may as well joke about it now. Hopefully no one will get upset with the comments but that is life.I like my Jab but others don't. So be it. Just like Holden will win at Townsville over the weekend but I'll watch out for the Holden bashers if they don't. May have to lay low actually the way Winterbottom is driving!!! I don't want to highjack the thread but........no part of those cars come from a Falcon or a Commodore . They are just steel tube frames with plastic panels glued on. They are NOT Fords or Holdens. Sports sedans and not very good ones. I fly a Jab as well. The engines seem to be a lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 The knocks I have had with my healthy 31 yo daughter having an aneurism Sunday week ago and now at deaths door I frankly don't give 2 sheets about anything anyone can a will say to me Life sucks I thought I was tough and let me tell you i am not I do not wish on any human what my family have been going through to anyone this last 12 days Do I want sympathy No. I want my innocent beautiful daughter who 12 days ago was sitting at home with her husband and 4 1/2 yo & 15 month old boys back but that is not ever going to happen I will say one thing now I have vented Love your loved ones like you have never loved before because life changes in a second Fly safe because it can leave your loved ones devestated if you think your infallible Trust me I know as I am living every parents nightmare right this minute Alf, I am truly sad to hear of the terrible thing that has happened to your Daughter. I'm sure that, like me, everyone on this forum wishes her a full and speedy recovery and that awful burden is lifted from you.. Please accept my sincere apologies if I have in any way added to the terrible stress you must be under right now. Kind regards and best wishes G 4 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVOCET Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 ditto Alf, we all feel for you and your family ; your last words are ,oh so true. mike 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Alf,I am truly sad to hear of the terrible thing that has happened to your Daughter. I'm sure that, like me, everyone on this forum wishes her a full and speedy recovery and that awful burden is lifted from you.. Please accept my sincere apologies if I have in any way added to the terrible stress you must be under right now. Kind regards and best wishes G gandalph Your not the one that needs to apologise I was at a bad moment in time and it is me that should and will Someone was wanting a fight unfortunately not you baiting for a jab bash session so after 50 hrs with no sleep because I never left the hospital as my girl went down hill Thursday afternoon and had emergency surgery that was once again meant to kill her then the waiting waiting waiting for the op to finish then the next angiogram straight after then a scan and finally a rant from her dad as he is watching her in the death rattle She did not due tonight as what I saw had me broken then 2 hrs later I am amazed at what u am seeing I have once again a glimmer of hope in my girl ever so slightly but better that what I had earlier tonight I intend to write a day to day journey of what has happened over the last 2 weeks soon somewhere on here just to give you all an idea of something I never want anyone of you to have to go through So for what it was worth sorry for my rant earlier It was my way of venting some gas Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 It's all good mate. She will pull thru!! Keep ya chin up alf. U have a lot of mates here. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Ahhh shit Alf, I got 3 Daughters 29, 27 and 22 and can't express my gutted feeling for you. You protect them all your life and how helpless you must feel now, hope things turn your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Thinking of you Alf, glad to see the first little step of hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 To Alf - I was well aware of your terrible family situation and join with everybody else in absolutely hoping for the best outcome, and didn't take the comment as anything but a bit of fun at Jabs. expense, which I agree is deserved. Interesting comment oscar. Doesnt reflect conversations Ive had with him, and probably about the actual engine which is the star of this thread:). Merv, if that engine is the one we're both thinking /talking about, David has pictures of the damage done to the crankcases by someone pulling them up to tension (the only purpose of which would be to measure the main and cam bearing tunnels) without washers under the nuts on the studs used for the job. That procedure is normally (and correctly) done using about 40mm diameter x 6mm or 8mm packers (thick washers) to distribute the load properly into the crankcase and protect the crankcase material. A quick look at the Jab. Engine Overhaul Manual, p.92, shows what I am talking about. In the case of the engine in question, NO washers were used and the nuts were wound down into the crankcase material, tearing the alloy badly in the process. If that doesn't constitute butchery, I don't know what would qualify. That crankcase should never have been allowed back into service. FWIW, when we disassembled our own engine (also an EFATO through through-bolt failure), we found more than sufficient evidence of bad practice in re-building (dents on the crankcase mating surfaces that could only have come from it being parted using small cold-chisels or a screw-driver hammered in as a parting tool and not even dressed-out, meaning the crankcases could not have been properly pulled down on assembly, and certainly it did not - and could not have when previously assembled - measure up. It was discarded. Given that Jabiru use a non-gasket crankcase jointing technique , anything less than a perfect mate between crankcase halves is critical to maintaining proper tension on the through-bolts - without which they will, sooner or later, fail. Even without any 'butchery', just cleaning the old jointing material off the crankcase faces is such a time-consuming process and so difficult to get right ( and I can personally attest to that - we're talking many, many hours of excruciatingly patient work, inspection, saying 'oh, bugger' under one's breath and returning to the task) that CAMit simply do not re-use the existing crankcases - whether they have been subject to failure or not - in their re-builds. It is more economic to make new cases than to try to prepare used ones for re-use in the CAMit situation. I would not have believed that until I did the work myself, but I damn well understood why by the time I had finished. If you are supplying the labour and can take the time to do a prep. job on the cases properly, it's possible to get them right if they have not been abused, but it's an almost Sisyphean task. Anything less than 'proper' prep work is simply building in the next failure. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Yes oscar. We have seen several examples of material loss on the crank case halves due to fretting which closes the gaps on the bearing journals and causes some big problems. Retaining the crank case AND the cylinder heads with the same bolts does not help the problem. I dont know if the engine thats failed here is the infamous one you speak of, I hope not:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Oscar, out of interest why is the gasket clean off so hard? Is it some sort of epoxy? I ask as a motorcycle rebuilder who has cleaned plenty of gasket material off but obviously not in such a fastidious way. Do you examine under a strong lens to see? Are you scraping or doing it with a rag and solvent? I admit I'm just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Merv - using the same through-bolts for both crankcase and cylinder retention is not that unusual (UL Power engines, for instance, do the same) - but it does impose disciplines that simply must be observed. Without going into obsessive detail, it's a 'system', and everything in that system has to be spot-on. Suffice it to say that just about every aspect of that particular system has been researched, analysed and modified by CAMit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Best of luck Alf...You are allowed to have a moment....Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Sounds like someone should be wearing a STRIPED APRON, with that engine work. Makers can't control what happens to their engines once they sell them.. Like an overstressed airframe, or hangar rash, . The next bloke flying it, cops the problem. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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