Updated CAAP 166-1(3) - Operations in the vicinity of non-controlled aerodromes August 2014

[coljones]

ENR 3.2.1Cheers

 

John

ENR 3.2 is upper ATS routes. Are you sure this is the correct ref? Gen 3.2 does have refs to CTAFs at 4.5 and 4.6 but does not define altitudes although a broadcast area may be defined - such as Taree - Port Macquarie and Newcastle in NSW and shown on VTCs, VNCs and ERCs Low.

My Sydney Basin Guide at page 68 says "At 2,500 ft and below, CTAF 122.55 and Above 2,500 feet Syd Radar 124.55" when adjacent to Wedderburn. Circuit height at Wedderburn is 1,900 feet (over an elevation of 850ft). This would imply that if more than 1500 above the strip all calls are on Area.

 

Camden Class D finishes at 2000ft above a circuit height of 1300feet. As this is an active glider area it pays to pay attention to what is happening below as the tugs can burst through the 2000 feet height rather quickly.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Try ENR 1.4 para 3.2.1

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[kaz3g]

ENR 1.4

 

3.2 Broadcast Areas

 

3.2.1 Broadcast Areas are defined airspace volumes in Class G airspace for which a discrete frequency (CTAF) has been allocated. All operations, including those at aerodromes (charted and uncharted) and landing sites within this area shall use this CTAF as the broadcast frequency. The default vertical limit of a Broadcast Area is 5,000FT AMSL.

 

3.2.2 The vertical boundaries of a Broadcast Area area: a. Surface to 5,000FT AMSL; or

 

1. b. Surface to the base of CTA if 8,500FT or less; or
    
   c. Surfacetoanominatedlevel.
    
    
    
    
   
2. 3.2.3 The lateral and vertical boundaries are defined in AIP MAP.
    
    
   

 

 

 

 

[kaz3g]

My Sydney Basin Guide at page 68 says "At 2,500 ft and below, CTAF 122.55 and Above 2,500 feet Syd Radar 124.55" when adjacent to Wedderburn. Circuit height at Wedderburn is 1,900 feet (over an elevation of 850ft). This would imply that if more than 1500 above the strip all calls are on Area. .

I have never flown there Col but I expect the issue is that Class C starts at 4500 ASL and Radar wants to be speaking to anyone likely to stray into it without clearance. It's also awfully close to R 555.

 

Kaz

 

 

[coljones]

ENR 1.43.2 Broadcast Areas

 

3.2.1 Broadcast Areas are defined airspace volumes in Class G airspace for which a discrete frequency (CTAF) has been allocated. All operations, including those at aerodromes (charted and uncharted) and landing sites within this area shall use this CTAF as the broadcast frequency. The default vertical limit of a Broadcast Area is 5,000FT AMSL.

 

3.2.2 The vertical boundaries of a Broadcast Area area: a. Surface to 5,000FT AMSL; or

 

1. b. Surface to the base of CTA if 8,500FT or less; or
    
   c. Surfacetoanominatedlevel.
    
    
    
    
   
2. 3.2.3 The lateral and vertical boundaries are defined in AIP MAP.
    
    
   

I think we have 2 situations here.

1. is a BROADCAST AREA such as that area between Tarree and Port Macquarie where there is a shared CTAF shown on a VTC surrounded by a heavy dark green dashed line and containing the words "For operation in this area SFC- BCTA use CTAF 132.1" in the case of the Newcastle Broadcast Area. The words for the Taree-PMQ Broadcast Area have similar words but a frequency of 118.1. This Broadcast Area also covers OldBar so presumably 118.1 is the local CTAF is also 118.1. The upper level for Taree-PMQ (BCTA) would appear to be 8500feet (the bottom of ESpace). There is also a Broadcast Area defined for the VictorOne area of Sydney using 120.8

 

2. and within vicinity of aerodromes (10miles) and (from reading of the Sydney basin guide) less than 1500 above the airfield you have to be on airfield CTAF or 165.7 or Broadcast Area CTAF (or AreaF if there is no airfield that you know of) - more than 1500 feet above the airfield use area frequency or Broadcast Area frequency.

 

There are only a few Broadcast Areas and they don't cover a huge area. Outside Broadcast Areas there are lots more aerodromes with CTAF, a lot using the default CTAF and an unknown number of invisible aerodromes which would appear to have to use Area Frequency - despite contrary advice ftom ATC who also have to follow the rules that the rest of us are forced to comprehend.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Roll on, affordable ADSB . . .

 

 

[robinsm]

Vaiable heights make sense when I circuit at 55 knots, the plastics circuit at 90 to 120 kts and the twin engine turbos circuit at 150 plus knots all at the same airfeild. No way am I going to race a twin turbo and make him wait in the circuit for me to maintain my right of way.

 

 

[Neil_S]

ENR 1.43.2 Broadcast Areas

 

3.2.1 Broadcast Areas are defined airspace volumes in Class G airspace for which a discrete frequency (CTAF) has been allocated. All operations, including those at aerodromes (charted and uncharted) and landing sites within this area shall use this CTAF as the broadcast frequency. The default vertical limit of a Broadcast Area is 5,000FT AMSL.

 

3.2.2 The vertical boundaries of a Broadcast Area area: a. Surface to 5,000FT AMSL; or

 

1. b. Surface to the base of CTA if 8,500FT or less; or
    
   c. Surfacetoanominatedlevel.
    
    
    
    
   
2. 3.2.3 The lateral and vertical boundaries are defined in AIP MAP.
    
    
   

Thanks, Kaz - I see it now. Am I right that there are no Broadcast Areas in the Melbourne VNC? The VNC legend has BA boundaries as dashed green lines, and I cannot see any there.

 

5000ft makes sense, 2000AGL just doesn't cut it. It's not just about conflicting with the circuit traffic but also with arrivals and departures who may fly through your level to higher climb within 10NM of the aerodrome.

I understand what you are saying, rhysmcc, but if that should apply in all cases (ie non-Broadcast Areas as well) then Yenn's original point stands - i.e. they should state it explicitly in CAAP 166-1, which they don't.

 

I am happy to do whatever we are supposed to do, but unfortunately that still seems to be open to interpretation and debate (hence this thread....)

 

Cheers

 

Neil

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Thanks, Kaz - I see it now. Am I right that there are no Broadcast Areas in the Melbourne VNC? The VNC legend has BA boundaries as dashed green lines, and I cannot see any there.

 

I understand what you are saying, rhysmcc, but if that should apply in all cases (ie non-Broadcast Areas as well) then Yenn's original point stands - i.e. they should state it explicitly in CAAP 166-1, which they don't.

 

I am happy to do whatever we are supposed to do, but unfortunately that still seems to be open to interpretation and debate (hence this thread....)

 

Cheers

 

Neil

The onus is on the pilot to make broadcasts on the most suitable frequency to avoid a collision, CASA in their wisdom has provided some advice as to which frequency, however there is no set parameters so to allow pilots to exercise judgement and good airmanship based on the local conditions.

 

If you're overflying an aerodrome at 2000AGL, while you may be above the circuit traffic, you will conflict with aircraft arriving and departing the circuit area. At 5000ft, you should conflict further out from the aerodrome at which time the departing or arriving aircraft should have made their intentions known on the Area Frequency. However again, this all depends on the local conditions such as aerodrome elevation, controlled airspace boundaries etc.

 

The system isn't perfect, but none would be.

 

 

[Yenn]

As I se it there is no problem as far as height goes with CTAF. Use it up to the base of E or other dontrolled airspace, which seems sensible.

 

What I was pointing out was that flying at 9nm from a CTAF strip, which has a frequency, even if it is 126.7, my interpretation is that flying at 500' you are not in the vicinity as it is worded, ie you are not within 10nm "and" at a height hich could cause conflict. You are below any other traffic using the CTAF strip.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

As I se it there is no problem as far as height goes with CTAF. Use it up to the base of E or other dontrolled airspace, which seems sensible.What I was pointing out was that flying at 9nm from a CTAF strip, which has a frequency, even if it is 126.7, my interpretation is that flying at 500' you are not in the vicinity as it is worded, ie you are not within 10nm "and" at a height hich could cause conflict. You are below any other traffic using the CTAF strip.

That seems quite plausible, personally I'd still be on the CTAF to catch any inbound/outbound calls from other other aircraft whom might be at low level aswell. Outside of 10NM then Area Freq seems to be the go.

 

If i was overflying an aerodrome with a CTAF at 7500ft (more then 5000AGL) I would also be on Area Freq, as thats where I'd expect to hear from other conflicting traffic, either also overhead or coming into or climbing out of the aerodrome passing through my level.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hi John,I did however find the following under the definition of Broadcast Area :-

 

"A note on charts states ”for operations in this area SFC -- <altitude> use CTAF <frequency>”. ", but I looked at the current Melbourne VTC, VNC etc and only found this note appearing once , in a very small area right in the middle of the Melbourne CTR over the Bolte Bridge, so not sure where else it might appear.....

That's an interesting one, Neil, because I would have thought MEN TWR and the height of the bridge would still have you in CTA at that point...perhaps it's for helicopters?

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

If the default upper limit of a BA is 5000' AMSL, then it seems pretty reasonable to infer that the same upper limit applies to all CTAFs.

 

That's not how the rules should be spelled out but the over-riding requirement of avoiding other traffic places the onus on the PIC and this is probably a good start.

 

Kaz

 

 

[coljones]

If the default upper limit of a BA is 5000' AMSL, then it seems pretty reasonable to infer that the same upper limit applies to all CTAFs.That's not how the rules should be spelled out but the over-riding requirement of avoiding other traffic places the onus on the PIC and this is probably a good start.

 

Kaz

A CTAF is not an area, an airfield or a region. It is a frequency, a dependent variable.

 

 

[Neil_S]

That's an interesting one, Neil, because I would have thought MEN TWR and the height of the bridge would still have you in CTA at that point...perhaps it's for helicopters?Kaz

Hi Kaz,

 

Yes - it does seem a bit odd. I doubt I will ever be flying there, but perhaps somebody who flies in that area could enlighten us?

 

Cheers,

 

Neil

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Hi Kaz,Yes - it does seem a bit odd. I doubt I will ever be flying there, but perhaps somebody who flies in that area could enlighten us?

 

Cheers,

 

Neil

You must have a different VTC to mine, it shows the green area that you speak of outside of controlled airspace, just south of the zone. This area is very busy with helicopter operations, multiple helipads on the water and rooftops. The LL in the area is 1500, which is roughly 500ft above the bolt bridge.

 

 

[Neil_S]

You must have a different VTC to mine, it shows the green area that you speak of outside of controlled airspace, just south of the zone. This area is very busy with helicopter operations, multiple helipads on the water and rooftops. The LL in the area is 1500, which is roughly 500ft above the bolt bridge.

You are correct - I should have been more specific. I still doubt I would fly over this populated area though if I am to be certain of remaining at least 1000ft above the highest point while still under the 1500 LL. As you say, there are a lot of helicopter operations there, which is probably why the BA is there.

 

Cheers

 

Neil

 

 

[kaz3g]

You must have a different VTC to mine, it shows the green area that you speak of outside of controlled airspace, just south of the zone. This area is very busy with helicopter operations, multiple helipads on the water and rooftops. The LL in the area is 1500, which is roughly 500ft above the bolt bridge.

Same VTC. But there is a bit of traffic on that bridge and clearing it by less than 500' seems contrary to a number of other requirements.

 

The Westgate Bridge, which is also in that small zone, is a very common VFR tracking point for traffic departing MEN.

 

It's a long while since I have gone down that way but my recollection is that clearance via the Westgate is usually at 2500' which keeps you in CTA until down near Altona. That is what I was referring to.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Saw this today. (sat 7.2.15 on FR24).... Aeroprakt A.22-LS Foxbat 7979 tootling around the Bay....

 

Now,would this mean he has an ADSB on board?

 

I see a lot of gliders based around Tocumwal on FR24, and surmise they too are fitted with ADSB.. am I right in thinking that?

 

 

 

[Happyflyer]

No, they just have transponders.

 

 

[frank marriott]

No, they just have transponders.

Unless it has been changed, Flight Radar 24 only displays ADSB transmissions (contains rego 7979, not available in with mode C)

 

 

[rhysmcc]

I believe they also get a feed from airservices radar

 

 

[KRviator]

I believe they also get a feed from airservices radar

That's the case in the US, but in Australia every bit of info I've seen is they can only display ADS-B equipped traffic as they don't have a live feed from Airservices.

 

Is the information on certain Internet websites (such as Flightradar24 and FlightAware) coming from the ATC ADS-B system?No. It is mainly derived from non-official ADS-B receivers that are connected to the Internet. These receivers are generally operated by radio enthusiasts and hobbyists.

Source

[Happyflyer]

Unless it has been changed, Flight Radar 24 only displays ADSB transmissions (contains rego 7979, not available in with mode C)

Maybe they can get the aircraft number if a flight plan is put in just like flight aware, it is then linked to the squawk code. Saw several airtractors fire fighting on flight radar, not sure if they would have ADSB. I have been on flight aware regularly and do not have ADSB.

 

 

[Yenn]

Concerning radio frequencies I have changed my view and now agree with CASA. Having used area frequency flying locally from an unmarked field, I heard Centre telling Qantas about an un identified VFR flight, right where I was. If I had been using 126.7, I would never have heard the transmission. I identified myself to centre, pressed ident as requested and they then asked me to contact the Qantas flight on Gladstones frequency. The Qantas flights sometimes come directly over our strip and I am sure they never know it is there. When we used 126.7 Qantas never heard us. Now using area is I believe a safer option and that is a complete change around for me.