US: FAA - Additional pilot now allowed on homebuilt first flights

[rgmwa]

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know of a competent test pilot in or around Perth with LSA experience?

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know of a competent test pilot in or around Perth with LSA experience?rgmwa

I suggest you contact Nick Coulson at CASA and ask for a short list. But see my next post.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Dafydd, I always refer to the requirements when I do something, so if it appears that I don't please be assured. I don't want to labour a lot of detail issues in general discussion. The principle is what matters to me and that is what I try to get across. It's a style thing. it might appear I simplify things. in discussion. I try to make my presentation for all the audience Strict requirements I do at the time I have to. as we all should. Nev

Thanks, Nev; I understand. However, the whole subject of flight testing of aircraft is very much misunderstood; much of it is about as exciting as watching cement set; but some aspects of it can be very hazardous, and somebody who sets out to venture into the unknowns of a new prototype needs to be (a) a competent pilot, and (b) have sufficient aeronautical engineering knowledge to understand what the aeroplane is trying to tell him, before the situation becomes unrecoverable. So I'm concerned that inexperienced pilots who are really in the stage of "getting the feel" of the aircraft, will ipso facto not be in a position to recognise subtle danger signals.

Fortunately, I suspect that most of the test flying is not of that type; but is essentially shaking the weevils out of a newly-built kit aircraft whose basics were sorted out long ago. So it amounts to the equivalent of a production flight test of a newly-manufactured certificated type. For that, one is essentially bedding in the brakes, adjusting "fixed" trim settings, and checking that everything works as it should. That's normally covered by the kit supplier's instructions. You shouldn't need a professional test pilot for that sort of thing.

 

When one is dealing with a new prototype, however, all one really has is the structural design flight and weight/CG envelope - and with amateur-designed aircraft, not even that in most cases. So the test pilot needs some levels of understanding that are outside normal pilot training; also, test pilots in this area have their own jargon; they talk of CG positions as "% MAC" and use such terms as "aperiodic phugoid" (which latter is actually a contradiction of terms, which makes it all the more confusing). But these things are life or death matters, in an unknown prototype; and what I am trying to say, is that unless the pilot has sufficient knowledge to understand precisely what is meant by (for example) an "aperiodic phugoid" and what that implies (negative longitudinal static stability), he should stay away from that activity.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Silly idea, what happens when the test pilot decides to bail out? Will the guy who has spent the best part of ten years with his baby go too, or will he wrestle it to the death?

 

Why would you put two crew at risk in an aircraft that only requires one to operate?

 

 

[facthunter]

Dafydd...I agree with ALL of that. I've been trying to "quantify" what sort of qualifications should be required, in my own mind. I know some who have done it many times and they were chosen because of their wide experience over many types most of them basic and not particularly developed or sound. They had to assess that themselves. Much of this was in the early days of U build stuff not far removed from "Popular Mechanics" that American magazine that touched on everything.

 

Talking of testing The Gypsland Aviation 8?? was a classic , so what chance would some of us have? I think model building and designing helps and many get quite a lot of knowledge of control and stability factors from there.

 

I think at least 1,000 hours of appropriate experience would be "nice to have" and that is not doing the same thing 500 times over 2 hours at a time. Basic aeros and extensive recovery from unusual attitudes too till it's second nature, and you need to be a certain personality. Careful, thorough and systematic with good logical methods. Not a daring "ace of the base" at all.. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

Silly idea, what happens when the test pilot decides to bail out? Will the guy who has spent the best part of ten years with his baby go too, or will he wrestle it to the death?Why would you put two crew at risk in an aircraft that only requires one to operate?

An experienced test pilot yells "hey the plane is out of control and it's not responding - bail out!" and you decide "meh, he doesn't know what he's talking about - I'll save this baby - just you watch."

I mean, seriously?

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

An experienced test pilot yells "hey the plane is out of control and it's not responding - bail out!" and you decide "meh, he doesn't know what he's talking about - I'll save this baby - just you watch."I mean, seriously?

Not me, cause I won't be in there.

My point is you don't want people in there with an emotional attachment to a piece of metal. Even the slightest hesitation may be enough, not to mention the distractions.

 

So yes seriously!

 

 

[dutchroll]

In all honesty, if an owner-builder gets an experienced test pilot to accompany them on Phase 1 testing, then something goes terribly wrong and the test pilot commands a bailout and jumps, but the owner-builder refuses, then:

 

a) you're in the exact same scenario as if the owner-builder was doing his own test flying solo anyway, and

 

b) the owner-builder has just shown himself to not be very smart, as the end result will show.

 

 

[facthunter]

You can build another plane but not if YOU are dead. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Has anybody tried asking an experienced test pilot? I rather doubt one would be too willing to do this; test pilots usually fly solo. And wear their own parachute.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Has anybody tried asking an experienced test pilot? I rather doubt one would be too willing to do this; test pilots usually fly solo. And wear their own parachute.

I find this discussion interesting and it obviously has two sides. I won't enter into that part of the argument as I don't have the experience or knowledge to make a meaningful contribution (I know I know that doesn't normally stop me)

My interest was was in Dafydd's last post and the few others talking of bailing out. Seeing as the thread is talking about homebuilts I was wondering how many pilots in Australia wear a parachute when test flying? Just curious as to the percentage as it's not something I have thought of before and wondered if it was widely practiced or not.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Dafydd...I agree with ALL of that. I've been trying to "quantify" what sort of qualifications should be required, in my own mind. I know some who have done it many times and they were chosen because of their wide experience over many types most of them basic and not particularly developed or sound. They had to assess that themselves. Much of this was in the early days of U build stuff not far removed from "Popular Mechanics" that American magazine that touched on everything.Talking of testing The Gypsland Aviation 8?? was a classic , so what chance would some of us have? I think model building and designing helps and many get quite a lot of knowledge of control and stability factors from there.

I think at least 1,000 hours of appropriate experience would be "nice to have" and that is not doing the same thing 500 times over 2 hours at a time. Basic aeros and extensive recovery from unusual attitudes too till it's second nature, and you need to be a certain personality. Careful, thorough and systematic with good logical methods. Not a daring "ace of the base" at all.. Nev

Nev, I've never come across a real professional test pilot who was any sort of "ace of the base", no matter what his manner might be. If you look at CASR 21.037, anybody can act as the Applicant's test pilot - but if the applicant wants CASA to take the Applicant's Flight Test Report seriously, he had better use a pilot that CASA recognises as competent. CASA will not even come and look at the applicant's aircraft until they have received the applicant's FTR and assessed it.

 

The ability to write an intelligible test report is part of that. Real test pilots are cautious and methodical about what they are doing; and nowadays often have both formal test pilot training and an engineering degree. I do not see how an amateur builder, unless he has this sort of background, can hope to match that.

 

To answer another post - the test pilot generally chooses whether or not to wear a parachute, depending on the nature of the test. I always wear one for flutter testing and spin testing; I may or may not wear one for other testing depending upon what I see as the level of risk. The use of a spin recovery parachute and a personal parachute is usually mandatory for spin testing, in the conditions imposed on the experimental certificate.

 

 

[AVOCET]

I

 

Has anybody tried asking an experienced test pilot? I rather doubt one would be too willing to do this; test pilots usually fly solo. And wear their own parachute.

i asked kieth E the first time around with the avocet . He was very obliging and was going to do some stalls and offer his thoughts and maybe suggestions .

I was on my way to have the testing done when i pranged ( told that story)

 

However i did the first flights based on the fact that it didnt seem right to ask anyone to fly a complete unknown.

 

Avocets back flying again and I've started the 40 hr test period from the beginning .

 

Next thing is to ask someone again to perfome a stall or two

 

Mike

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Ii asked kieth E the first time around with the avocet . He was very obliging and was going to do some stalls and offer his thoughts and maybe suggestions .

 

I was on my way to have the testing done when i pranged ( told that story)

 

However i did the first flights based on the fact that it didnt seem right to ask anyone to fly a complete unknown.

 

Avocets back flying again and I've started the 40 hr test period from the beginning .

 

Next thing is to ask someone again to perfome a stall or two

 

Mike

You could hardly find anybody better than Keith.