Guest Andys@coffs Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 So Andy correct me if I am wrong, but you think that those members who prefer to get a paper version of the magazine (and are willing to pay extra for it) should not access the online version on principle even though their membership fees helped to pay for it. Strange concept really.Normally I wouldn't access an online version of a magazine but just say someone rings me up and says hey Geoff you should read the article in the new mag about xyz airplane that I am thinking of buying then in all likelyhood I would go and have a look the same as I would if he rang and said go to such and such a website and have a look at the story on xyz airplane. Many people are happy to do things online but still prefer a printed magazine that does not make them hypocritical or unprincipled as you have implied. Cheers Geoff13 No...I think those here who public state that as a principle they would never read an online magazine will, as stated, stick to their principle and never read it online and will be quite comfortable waiting the extra month ......If they choose, to step away from those principles, then that is a decision between them and none else....... Bottom line for me is it's the members personal choice..... As to the question of hypocrisy..... I believe you previously stated "I don't read the Ulysses Magazine electronically. I don't read the CMCA magazine electronically and I wont read this one electronically." That statement didn't seem to be anything but completely unequivocally "Nope never Wont happen" So, if in support of your argument you state Nope Never Wont happen, and now its Nope never Wont happen except, for example when A, or B or C or....... then I'll leave it to others to judge whether that's hypocrisy and unprincipled..... I don't think that doing those things is unprincipled or hypocritical, I think stating on a public forum that you would never read it, as a means to bolster your argument however is....but its minor and probably not worth the argument....... Tubs, with regard the portal, Im sorry that was me assuming, the strawman words used was "on our website" whether that's portal or main public facing website Im not sure, but we did discuss copyright....with a paper magazine you can only lend it to one person at a time and ideally for most who cherish the mag they will want it back at some time, with an unprotected PDF file (because I don't believe we intend to apply a DRM style solution) a member can technically send it to as many of his friends as he wants, and can host it himself from a blog/personal webpage if he/she wants. I don't believe there was to be any controls technological or by request to the members to control the distribution of the file, in fact I think it was a case of send it where ever you think it might do some good. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Just as another option rather than going down the electronic magazine/subscription model. Has the possibility of taking the magazine inhouse and doing it been considered? I know of one group that has done that in the recent past and turned a $30,000 plus deficit per quarter into a profit inside 6 months. Please don't assume that I am saying that it could happen here because obviously as a newby I have no concept of what I am talking about and the situation here could be totally different but I just wonder if this possibility is being investigated. It may be another way to redirect all those staff that have been put on to solve the registration issues once they are sorted and go online.Cheers Geoff13 Geoff if you read the motion in the very first post you'll see that is exactly what is being considered...against the backdrop of contractual reality....... Andy P.S drop the Newbie crap in every post...its getting old...you've made your point and made your point...and made your point and despite what else you might think of me I don't have short term memory loss...that I know of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I think the CEO is investigating options regarding the magazine. The way I understood the motion, the paper mag stays until April at which time a new system will come in. What that is exactly hasn't been decided (still under investigation). If your concerned about a solution and want it looked at, maybe send him a quick email. He does appear to reply within a business day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Geoff if you read the motion in the very first post you'll see that is exactly what is being considered...against the backdrop of contractual reality.......Andy P.S drop the Newbie crap in every post...its getting old...you've made your point and made your point...and made your point and despite what else you might think of me I don't have short term memory loss...that I know of Andy you bought up the newby bit not me. But thats ok I have a long memory. I still take the odd opportunity on here to remind someone that I am not an english major either because I saw his comments on my spelling error as condecending as well. If someone chooses to belittle me because of my spelling or my percieved inexperience I will continue to bring it up whenever I feel they could try and use it again. Cheers Geoff13 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Yeah and didn't you latch on to it...ignoring everything else that was in the post! That you came back saying "Middo who ever he is" actually completely made my case that there was much history that needed to be understood as to why we are where we are....... You would be in a crowd of a very small number in not understanding who he is and what he has done over the years.. An analogy might be an Australian who doesn't know who Capt Cook was... I said I was sorry for offending you and I meant it. Anyway this whole sniping each other thing is taking away from the main point of the thread, I will snipe no more! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Instead of sniping what about the good history old Middo started. Middo and couple of his buddies landed their drifters in front of Parliament House. Middo & Co did that to prove the safety of the drifters. Thank you Middo. I would like that story refined please. Regards KP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Andy you bought up the newby bit not me. But thats ok I have a long memory. I still take the odd opportunity on here to remind someone that I am not an english major either because I saw his comments on my spelling error as condecending as well. If someone chooses to belittle me because of my spelling or my percieved inexperience I will continue to bring it up whenever I feel they could try and use it again.Cheers Geoff13 And people wonder why the board members don't comment on here.......... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Spot on Skepy. That is exactly what came to mind for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 yes paper edition is the only way - never have bothered reading an electronic CASA mag Having said that everything seems to be going electronic ......................... it seems a 'race to the bottom' in costs savings these days it seems that shortly there will be no need for a footpath - just supply enough room for a dirty great big computer cable up and down the street In relation to voting - I've been a member for 7 years (guessing) and never voted - I have never seen any issue yet that requires my vote and am happy with the way things currently are (or turn out to be) - maybe in semi-retirement there will be time to ponder all the steady organisational argie bargie that can be read here. To the board members and voting members - keep the good work going 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Yeah and didn't you latch on to it...ignoring everything else that was in the post! That you came back saying "Middo who ever he is" actually completely made my case that there was much history that needed to be understood as to why we are where we are....... You would be in a crowd of a very small number in not understanding who he is and what he has done over the years.. An analogy might be an Australian who doesn't know who Capt Cook was...I said I was sorry for offending you and I meant it. Anyway this whole sniping each other thing is taking away from the main point of the thread, I will snipe no more! Andy Andy...Geoff13...... you two really need to get a room!!......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 And people wonder why the board members don't comment on here.......... For you and: Agree x 3 Rhysmcc biggles Maj Millard This is a Forum, where anyone is entitled to say their piece, and it is a healthy forum which has seen others come and go, one I remember from a guy who used this forum to start a "friendly " one of his own several years ago and when I last looked had about four members, another, a purge where all the supposed nasties were offloaded and the site nearly fell over because the "Nice" ones didn't know what to post when they were the only ones left, and another one where some of the ferals had been offloaded by several sites to one of their own and it died. You need a robust mix to keep interest moving, and for you particularly Major given your comments on another thread, Andy has been a breath of fresh air, communicating openly and taking undiplomatic comments on the chin, and probably unnecessarily apologising. What is happening is that he is gathering a respect which none of the other board members have really achieved and someone who's winning the fight doesn't need a spectator to jump into the ring and trip him up by interrupting the flow. When someone who says he's from the trucking industry but doesn't really talk trucking language, says he's a Ulysses member etc to try to bolster an argument, Andy is ultimately going to win. Why not let him be? 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 For you and: Agree x 3 Rhysmcc biggles Maj Millard This is a Forum, where anyone is entitled to say their piece, and it is a healthy forum which has seen others come and go, one I remember from a guy who used this forum to start a "friendly " one of his own several years ago and when I last looked had about four members, another, a purge where all the supposed nasties were offloaded and the site nearly fell over because the "Nice" ones didn't know what to post when they were the only ones left, and another one where some of the ferals had been offloaded by several sites to one of their own and it died. You need a robust mix to keep interest moving, and for you particularly Major given your comments on another thread, Andy has been a breath of fresh air, communicating openly and taking undiplomatic comments on the chin, and probably unnecessarily apologising. What is happening is that he is gathering a respect which none of the other board members have really achieved and someone who's winning the fight doesn't need a spectator to jump into the ring and trip him up by interrupting the flow. When someone who says he's from the trucking industry but doesn't really talk trucking language, says he's a Ulysses member etc to try to bolster an argument, Andy is ultimately going to win. Why not let him be? turbo.....Ian the site admin ask for opinions on his site and I was more than happy to give him one...he replied adequetly to that...what you may think of my opinions means diddly twit to me. Fact is there are many being driven away by the same repetitive boring generally negative dribble of a regular few. As far as Andy goes ..he is a big boy and more than capable of taking care of himself on this forum......My recent commen to him and Geoff13 to ....'get a room' was an attempt at humor which obviously went straight over the top of your head. We here in the North like to think we still possess a sense of humor, so maybe you Southerners need to come up here more often and get more vitamin D happening ( glorious sunshine !)...........................Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Maj I agree Andy and I need to get a room. and yes I saw your humour thank you. :) Sometimes yes we forget that in the end the personal attacks don't really matter and obviously Andy and I disagree on this issue, although I am not certain we are that far apart. And apart from the fact that we disagree he has certainly convinced me that he is passionate about what he is doing and will do the best job he can. That is all we can ask of volunteers. And I certain am happy to agree to disagree so long as I get a fair hearing. When someone who says he's from the trucking industry but doesn't really talk trucking language, says he's a Ulysses member etc to try to bolster an argument, Andy is ultimately going to win. Why not let him be? I am sorry I don't sound like a truckie to you I will try and throw a few 10/4 rubber ducks in to the conversation from time to time or call windscreen every now and again to make myself sound more authentic. Or would you really like me to repeat some of the real garbage that I hear on the UHF from time to time, which by the way is why I rarely turn mine on and would probably get me banned from this site. Or maybe you can enlighten me on Truckie Speak. My mention of Ulysses was in defence of the attack on my credentials and was only to highlight that whilst I may be new here I am certainly not new to clubs and or administration of same not for any other reason and certainly not to bolster any argument. Cheers Geoff13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 turbo.....Ian the site admin ask for opinions on his site and I was more than happy to give him one...he replied adequetly to that...what you may think of my opinions means diddly twit to me. Fact is there are many being driven away by the same repetitive boring generally negative dribble of a regular few.As far as Andy goes ..he is a big boy and more than capable of taking care of himself on this forum......My recent commen to him and Geoff13 to ....'get a room' was an attempt at humor which obviously went straight over the top of your head. We here in the North like to think we still possess a sense of humor, so maybe you Southerners need to come up here more often and get more vitamin D happening ( glorious sunshine !)...........................Maj.... A funny ?....is that the best yo can do Turbo .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVOCET Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Plenty of Vitamin D in SA , A lot less humidity ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 despite what else you might think of me I don't have short term memory loss...that I know of Always remember that you can't remember what it is that you can't remeber, let alone wether you ever knew it at all. Might be an even worse problem than all of us low time pilots, and quite a few lucky high time ones , who don't know what they don't know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 A funny ?....is that the best yo can do Turbo .......... Geez, I was joining in the campfire-like feel-good humour - now I'm in tears! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Geez, I was joining in the campfire-like feel-good humour - now I'm in tears! Get a tissue... quick !....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Just as another option rather than going down the electronic magazine/subscription model. Has the possibility of taking the magazine inhouse and doing it been considered?Cheers Geoff13 Steady on Geoff, with talk like that you'll set FT off on his " empire building" line again..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 .........RA-Aus Board Meeting 19 October 2014 Record of Motions and Member Communication .............................................. Sport Pilot Magazine Sport Pilot accounts for some 14% of our overall expenditure. After considering a detailed plan from the CEO. All members will have access to a free digital copy of Sport Pilot under this proposal, however in attempting to reduce the deficit the Board felt it prudent to introduce a subscription model of printed copies of Sport Pilot. Between October 2014 and April 2015 RA-Aus will undertake a detailed communication plan with all members to determine a fair and equitable way to distribute Sport Pilot. Motion: 1. RA-Aus take control of printing and distribution (CEO to negotiate contract). 2. RA-Aus introduce a free digital magazine to member’s from 1 April 2015. 3. RA-Aus introduce a paid subscription model for members from 1 April 2015. The cost of subscription be closely tied to the cost of production, but with view to ensuring costs, both hard and soft, are covered and determined by the CEO. 4. Sport Pilot be removed from newsstands and converted to a member’s only resource. 5. The CEO do all things necessary to renegotiate the contract in the most favourable terms to RA-Aus. 6. The CEO do all things necessary to deliver recommendations 1, 2, 3 in the most favourable terms to RA-Aus and its membership. I feel that our magazine “Sport Pilot” has been wrongly maligned as a villain that is dragging down RAAus finances. As far as I am aware, since AUF times, the cost of a subscription to the Association newsletter/magazine has been a component of the membership fee and so all members are entitled to a (hard) copy of that publication. According to the 2013-14 budget (on the RAAus web site members’ area) the cost of publishing 12 issues of the magazine was $358,168. During that same period the magazine generated $16,828 from newsagent sales plus $33,807 from members’ market ads. So the net cost of publishing Sport Pilot last year was $307,533. If that cost is spread over 10,000 members it is $30.75 per member per year or just $2.56 per copy – one third of the news stand price of $7.70! The way the proposal to distribute the magazine in electronic form and then charge those members who wish to still have it in hard copy an extra fee is a very thinly disguised attempt to raise membership fees yet again. They increased by $25/year (13.5%) only 10 months ago! I do not believe that the cost of publication of Sport Pilot has contributed to the deficit. It may well be 14% of RAAus expenses but it is also only 13.95% of our membership fee. The deficit situation we find ourselves in is NOT as a result of publishing Sport Pilot, it is a result of increased wages and salaries and the ever increasing cost of compliance with CASA requirements. Publishing the magazine in electronic format could reduce the cost by a significant amount – if the publication in hard copy ceased. This would IMHO also considerably reduce the perceived member benefit for a significantly large number of members. The cost of publishing in electronic format in addition to hard copy format is probably very low, if there is additional cost at all. I think a decision to abruptly and unilaterally cease publishing the magazine in hard copy is very poor PR and will alienate a large proportion of the RAAus membership. DWF 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 DWF Thanks for the comments, you are correct that the magazine is not, of itself the major driver of the deficit, and equally that it is the result of CASA obligations and their flow on impact on wages/salary. If we do as you suggest and ignore the magazine for the moment what are your thoughts on treating the deficit, because at the end of the day we need that removed by cost control and or dues increases IMHO. Updating our IT Systems will lead to efficiencies longer term, but CASA is unlikely to stop moving the goalposts in some cases, and forcing us to meet our obligations, where we have traditionally failed to do so in other cases, so even getting to break even (which is fine for a not for profit, providing we have some contingency backup) is unlikely to remain status quo for long. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryc Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Andy, I noticed you didn't comment on the figures DWF offered. They appear to be correct to me. If this is so Raa is up to their old tricks again. What happened to openness and honesty. Good, bad or ugly the truth is required, we CAN handle the truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 The magazine could be better. It aims for member and general readership and falls between both. If you buy a magazine in the newsagents about steam models, or vintage cars, or shooting, or whatever, there are detailed articles about building, restoring, maintaining, reloading and so on written by people who are experts and well edited. Anyone off the street can buy the magazine and enjoy the articles, even if they will never build a model railway. Sport Pilot lacks that quality and diversity of writing. It is more of a club magazine. If that is the standard we aim for, it should not be in newsagents. It is perfectly OK as a club newsletter but in that case we should drive down the cost as far as possible. That might include cheap paper, monochrome, or electronic distribution. As it stands, I think many off-the-street buyers of Sport Pilot would be disappointed at what they have bought. My choice would be to go up market, build circulation and attract more advertising revenue for a really first-class magazine that would become self- funding. To do that you need writers, a full- time Editor (who could be doing other things for us), an advertising manager (part time) and a deal with a publisher. This is a big commitment which would need to be developed and costed and put to members before implementing. Otherwise we should stick to cheap and cheerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 so if the magazine is canned, will we see a reduction in membership fees as that part of your membership has disappeared. I believe the magazine is part of the whole membership deal and as such, if it goes then we should be entitled to a reduction in membership fees. How do I stand with this opinion you legal eagles?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Andy, I noticed you didn't comment on the figures DWF offered. They appear to be correct to me. If this is so Raa is up to their old tricks again. What happened to openness and honesty. Good, bad or ugly the truth is required, we CAN handle the truth. Terry Im struggling a bit.....We have just posted full quarterly figures which have all the data your looking for....They are posted in the members portal so you have to log in using your membership details so "Openness and honesty" I feel we have fully ticked that box, How do you see it differently? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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