A320 crash

[fly_tornado]

I wonder if they can identify which pilot was PIC by the CVR?

 

 

[Marty_d]

They said they had audio of the pilots talking earlier in the flight, so it's likely that the one who got locked out would be caught saying something like "fly this thing for a mo would you, I've got to point percy at the porcelain" (or whatever they say in Germany).

 

Interesting that they put locks on all cockpit doors after 9/11, now that's possibly a factor in this crash. Wonder if they'll now recommend that both pilots carry a key at all times that can unlock the door from the outside, or whether that's too much of a security risk.

 

 

[PA.]

Would not be the first time a pilot has been locked out of the cockpit whilst the remaining pilot has committed suicide. MH370?

 

News link says what has been said above.

 

 

[dutchroll]

They said they had audio of the pilots talking earlier in the flight, so it's likely that the one who got locked out would be caught saying something like "fly this thing for a mo would you, I've got to point percy at the porcelain" (or whatever they say in Germany).Interesting that they put locks on all cockpit doors after 9/11, now that's possibly a factor in this crash. Wonder if they'll now recommend that both pilots carry a key at all times that can unlock the door from the outside, or whether that's too much of a security risk.

Wouldn't make any difference. All cockpit doors can be dead-bolted closed from the cockpit side.

This is a security measure to prevent entry to the cockpit in the event of an attack coming from the cabin.

 

 

[gandalph]

I feel safer in an Airbus than a Jabiru

Ho hum

 

 

[dutchroll]

Been reading the clueless reader commentary on various news websites and I'm going to have to do an info post just in case any of your friends decide to join in with the crowd! ;)

 

Cockpit Door on an Airbus or Boeing (without telling you stuff I'm not allowed to say - this is publicly available information):

 

1. The door is electrically locked.

 

2. The door can be dead-bolted from the cockpit as a backup security measure to this.

 

3. The door can be unlocked by a switch from either pilot's seat. This is how we get food, coffee, back in after going to the loo, etc etc. The default position of course however, is "locked".

 

4. The whole area around the door is monitored by CCTV. We are watching!

 

5. In an emergency, there is a method by which a pilot or person outside the cockpit can unlock the door BUT............the action of trying to unlock the door from the outside has a built-in time delay to allow the pilots inside the cockpit to override it and deny entry when this is attempted.

 

Bottom line: the bloke inside the cockpit has the ultimate say in all cases (except for a mechanical fault, in which case the bloke left in the cockpit just lands the plane by himself).

 

 

[Guest asmol]

Some airlines never allowed just one person in the cockpit. If it is only a pilot and co-pilot in the cockpit and one of them wants to leave most airlines then have a rule that the head purser or whatever they want to be called now goes into the cockpit and sits there with the other pilot/co-pilot until the other one has got back from his distraction. This way there is always two people in the cockpit so that in the event of one of them instantly dying the other one can still open the door for other people etc. etc. Never heard about the time delay on the door but it makes a lot of sense.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I see that they say they have recovered the CVR, but as yet not the FDR....Surely in this day and age we can fit both functions into a single box of similar size and weight etc...and then we can duplicate both so that if one is found you have both parts of the story and not just one in isolation... Or even better perhaps we can scale it down in size so that we can have multiple in different parts of the aircraft.....

With solid state recorders, there are definitely recorders that can do both! Some of the aircraft I fly have a single unit and some have two independent units!

If current media speculation turns out to be true, surely it is time we re-visit the fortification of cockpit doors. This knee jerk reaction after 911 could have just as easily been mitigated with different entry procedures. I don't think fortified doors have saved anyone as yet, but they may well have cost a few lives!

 

 

[dutchroll]

....... most airlines then have a rule that the head purser or whatever they want to be called now goes into the cockpit and sits there with the other pilot/co-pilot until the other one has got back from his distraction. This way there is always two people in the cockpit so that in the event of one of them instantly dying the other one can still open the door for other people etc. etc.

Our airline follows very standard practice for Boeing and Airbus types and I'm not aware of any requirement for the head flight attendant to sit with the other pilot while one is going to the loo on aircraft with these cockpit door locking and monitoring systems. You may be thinking of US airlines, some of which do have that requirement. I don't think it's common in Europe and it's certainly not a requirement in Australia.

I don't believe that the US system of a flight attendant in the cockpit with the other pilot would actually prevent a guy who was determined to put the plane in some sort of jeopardy. As soon as the door was closed, full forward stick would slam them against the roof. All over. In the case of where their pilots are armed - again, all over.

 

As I said, in an emergency, the other guy can still get back in. It requires a deliberate act to deny them entry.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Dunno if this 25 year old aircraft would have had fancy door interlocks / codepad etc fitted?

 

Waiting to hear the cockpit recording and expecting to hear allahu akbar at the end... sudden jihad syndrome. Maybe they'll edit it.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

GNu I am surprised your not advocating stewards armed with machine guns, off your game?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Shirley it's time to bring back an engineer into the cockpit?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

News link says what has been said above.

This is up there with one of the stupidest lines I have read ..

 

"THE first half of Germanwings Flight 9525 was chilling in its normalcy."

 

 

[fly_tornado]

shirley you mean 2 engineers

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

This is up there with one of the stupidest lines I have read .."THE first half of Germanwings Flight 9525 was chilling in its normalcy."

I don't know....its just an emotive way of saying..."All was normal right up to when it suddenly wasn't" which is what you'd write if you were unsure if your readers were fully across the meaning of normal

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

shirley you mean 2 engineers

'Using Aircraft ancient F111 design logic, critical factors need triple redundancy, if you only have 2 flight computers and one commands up, and the other commands down which one is right? if you have 3 the odd man out gets voted off the team, and the master warning and caution lamp causes aircrew to start the high speed pucker manoeuvre....

So you really need 3 engineers and a copy of meeting protocols so that 1 or more doesn't go feral due to complete inactivity for an expected 999.32 years of their working life

 

 

[fly_tornado]

2nd emergency cockpit at the rear of the plane?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I remember that Lufthansa (parent company of ggermanwings) was on strike recently I wonder if the pilot was involved?

 

http://www.smh.com.au/world/lufthansa-pilots-strike-again-with-no-end-to-dispute-in-sight-20150318-1m2j1t.html

 

and previous action

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/lufthansa-pilots-call-off-strike-2014-09-15

 

 

[rankamateur]

2nd emergency cockpit at the rear of the plane?

Right next to the galley, very convenient when the captain ducks out to entertain the stewardess and then something starts flying off the fan.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Dunno if this 25 year old aircraft would have had fancy door interlocks / codepad etc fitted?Waiting to hear the cockpit recording and expecting to hear allahu akbar at the end... sudden jihad syndrome. Maybe they'll edit it.

These things were retro-fitted after 9/11 and didn't really exist prior to then in any aircraft. Most (in fact all of them I think) of the big aviation regulatory agencies mandated it.

We went through quite a big door upgrade program right across the Boeing and Airbus fleets as a consequence.

 

 

[rankamateur]

As with all rushed responses by regulators, seems thinking through unexpected consequences was given a low priority.

 

 

[dutchroll]

As with all rushed responses by regulators, seems thinking through unexpected consequences was given a low priority.

I don't believe so.

You can prioritise preventing inflight access, or allowing inflight access. You can't really do both. In a risk analysis the chance of a terror threat or a violent passenger attempting to seize control is considered to be of much greater significance than the chance of a pilot locking his compatriot out and deciding to end it all, along with the lives of a couple of hundred others.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

shirley you mean 2 engineers

I mean 2 pilots and a flight engineer, like it used to be, use whatever terms suit.

 

I don't know....its just an emotive way of saying..."All was normal right up to when it suddenly wasn't" which is what you'd write if you were unsure if your readers were fully across the meaning of normal

I'll remember to stand up and start screaming "We're all gunna die!!" and attacking the blonde with large assets or something the first half of my next flight if everything is normal.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Article from March 2014:

 

Could plane cockpits be too secure?

 

 

[Marty_d]

I mean 2 pilots and a flight engineer, like it used to be, use whatever terms suit.

 

I'll remember to stand up and start screaming "We're all gunna die!!" and attacking the blonde with large assets or something the first half of my next flight if everything is normal.

So... normal behaviour then.

 

I don't believe so.You can prioritise preventing inflight access, or allowing inflight access. You can't really do both. In a risk analysis the chance of a terror threat or a violent passenger attempting to seize control is considered to be of much greater significance than the chance of a pilot locking his compatriot out and deciding to end it all, along with the lives of a couple of hundred others.

There's also the chance of the remaining pilot becoming incapacitated for some reason, as someone said in this thread it may not have been suicide - what if he had a heart attack?

 

In any case the US protocol of having another crew member in the cockpit when one of them takes a slash seems eminently sensible - two minutes out of their schedule is all it'd be in most cases. May not stop a determined suicide but it'd improve everyone's chances.