bexrbetter Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 There must be a reason why millennium's cylinders are preferred instead of Eci's nikasil. I don't see the connection between the issue and nikasil bores. The OEM originals are having the same issues and if you are familiar with the differences between a major engine manufacturer and an aftermarket supplier, the higher rate of failure for the aftermarket supplier, as low as it is, is of no surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grindio Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I've been an engine dealer for more than 25 years, and oem parts are not always better than after markets. Do your research on continental o200 heads and cylinders and you'la see why most people in the states are using aftermarket cylinders on certified planes. The very moment Yamaha or Suzuki start producing these light aero engines will be game over for everyone but rotax and lyc. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDallas Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I don't see the connection between the issue and nikasil bores.The OEM originals are having the same issues and if you are familiar with the differences between a major engine manufacturer and an aftermarket supplier, the higher rate of failure for the aftermarket supplier, as low as it is, is of no surprise. I'm not to sold on nikasil, it's true they solve the corrosion problem, but read this:http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/ECI-Cylinder-AD-The-More-You-Look-the-Worse-It-Is-220510-1.html There must be a reason why millennium's cylinders are preferred instead of Eci's nikasil. I just read that article and I don't understand what it has to do with Nikasil These light weight Engines are driving me nuts. I wish the FAA would get some sense and change the light sport weight to 1450Lbs, so we could use a real aircraft engine 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I wish the FAA would get some sense and change the light sport weight to 1450Lbs, so we could use a real aircraft engine LSA originated somewhere from Euro rules I believe, problem is they are much smaller and lighter physically than Australians and Americans and 1320lbs just isn't enough for full fuel load, 2 big adults and baggage - your 1450lb figure is spot I on and what it should be IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 FYI, a hunt around Camit site and here will tell you plenty about it. Ian is a very dedicated engineer and knows these engines possibly better than anyone else. Camit produces parts and assembled Jabiru engines to Jabiru specifications since the beginning. They were in partnership throughout development Now Jabiru have decided to go elsewhere for parts, like on the new engine. Camit have begun selling their own version of the engines a few years ago. They have gone back to solid lifter version, considered a superior setup with far less issues, and continued development from there. Many upgrades inside including better oil control and distribution, stronger cylinders and improved throughbolts, better head material, better rocker geometry, new flywheel attachment, new altenator, the list is long. All parts are very high quality They look the same but definitely are not. Camit offer an inhibitor system which injects oil into cylinders with a pull of a cable, no plugs, no cowl removal, can be done every shutdown. The new roller followers and recessed pistons from Jab exist, but there are still valvetrain, cylinder, throughbolt and flywheel problems. Jabiru are promoting these upgrades due to the pressure they are under to improve reliability. The new cylinders etc essentially do not exist yet. They look nice but are a major change and will no doubt bring up new problems which will need sorting out. I expect Jabiru will release them but this doesnt mean all issues found or fixed. They have a long way to go to restore user confidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDallas Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 FYI, a hunt around Camit site and here will tell you plenty about it. Ian is a very dedicated engineer and knows these engines possibly better than anyone else.Camit produces parts and assembled Jabiru engines to Jabiru specifications since the beginning. They were in partnership throughout development Now Jabiru have decided to go elsewhere for parts, like on the new engine. Camit have begun selling their own version of the engines a few years ago. They have gone back to solid lifter version, considered a superior setup with far less issues, and continued development from there. Many upgrades inside including better oil control and distribution, stronger cylinders and improved throughbolts, better head material, better rocker geometry, new flywheel attachment, new altenator, the list is long. All parts are very high quality They look the same but definitely are not. Camit offer an inhibitor system which injects oil into cylinders with a pull of a cable, no plugs, no cowl removal, can be done every shutdown. The new roller followers and recessed pistons from Jab exist, but there are still valvetrain, cylinder, throughbolt and flywheel problems. Jabiru are promoting these upgrades due to the pressure they are under to improve reliability. The new cylinders etc essentially do not exist yet. They look nice but are a major change and will no doubt bring up new problems which will need sorting out. I expect Jabiru will release them but this doesnt mean all issues found or fixed. They have a long way to go to restore user confidence. Are the roller flowers solid lifters. Joe D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 No, Jabiru persist with hydraulic lifter engines The monitoring of lifter adjustments is a vital key to whats happening in the engine and quite simple. If valves arent sticking, theres no need for recessed pistons. They are normally usd in auto engines with valve timing belts which can potentially break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Joe, I guess the answers you get from CAMit or Jabairu would depend on what questions you asked. For example: Did you ask CAMit: "Can I buy an engine from you?" Or did you ask": "Do you have a dealer in the USA?" Did you ask: "Do you use roller cam followers?" "Do you use Nikasil in the Cylinder bores and if you don't can you tell me why you don't?" "Does your engine have notches in the pistons for valve relief and if you don't can you tell me why you don't?" "How do you stop cylinders from rusting in your engines?" Or did you ask "Have you got a shiny brochure I can read that answers all the questions I haven't asked? Did you ask: "How can the CAMit engine be different from the Jabiru engine when you make both engines?" Or did you hope that CAMit would just read your mind and explain all these things? Those are questions you've kinds asked here so why not talk to the horse's mouth? Like I said earlier, I'm sure both CAMit and Jabiru will answer as best they can any questions you ask - but you gotta ask! I'm equally sure that neither Ian Bent or Rod Stiff will say "Hey don't bother us - go ask the people on the Rec Flying group." You said "I would like to talk to some from Camit to see how they address these Items." but have YOU opened that conversation and have YOU asked those questions? You also said "If some one from Camit wants to contact me they have my Email address that I sent them last week" I'm sure that they would want to contact any prospective buyer but I hope you asked at least some of the questions you raised here in this group in that email so they have some idea of just what you want to know about. If you didn't than maybe you should sit down and draw up a list of questions and fire them off to CAMit - then you've started the conversation and hopefully you'll get information you need to make a sound decision. Hope it all works out well for you - keep us informed of your progress - We Aussies are always interested in someone else's projects. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Ah.... recessed pistons to "fix" sticking valves.....I chuckle a little bit every time I read that.... 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 There seems to be an idea persisting that rusting bores are related to humidity. If you fly ina salty environment it would be reasonable to assume some salt is going through the engine in the air it ingests, and you are better without salt which is highly corrosive. Hydrocarbons when they are burned form CO2 PLUS WATER. You see it running out of the cars in front of you when they haven't fully warmed up. If you taxi a cold engine from the clubhouse to your hangar you will leave enough water in it to rust the cylinders in a short time. If you consistently do short flights, you will be adding water to your oil with the blowby gases. It takes about an hour to fully warm most motors and the oil temp should reach 85 degrees at least. The oil can show an opaque "milky" look which is a bad sign. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 A lot of guys ...more and more, are adding upper cyl lube, or 2stroke oil into their fuels. Sceptics to begin with....converts now. It does aid engines, 1 chap decided to pull heads etc off just to inspect after some hundreds of hrs, it was spotless inside, rings were all free...thanks to moreys. I too, can vouch for moreys , I've got one happy engine. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 JoeDallas, why not telephone Camit, surely the call would be a small cost compared with the costs of an engine? Alan. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Two stroke oil in Jabiru fuel? craziness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Many guys do, all report good. That's a fact. Now you pop up and say crazy...... Based on what ?? ( facts please ) I'll go with the users group...sorry. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Many guys do, all report good. That's a fact.Now you pop up and say crazy...... Based on what ?? ( facts please ) I'll go with the users group...sorry. Facts! You want Facts? Good luck with that Russ. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 sorry I meant madness, in this day and age that a production engine still requires users to take such measures. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Two stroke oil in Jabiru fuel? craziness! Sarcasm, I think that's what it's called..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planesmaker Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 A lot of guys ...more and more, are adding upper cyl lube, or 2stroke oil into their fuels. Sceptics to begin with....converts now. It does aid engines, 1 chap decided to pull heads etc off just to inspect after some hundreds of hrs, it was spotless inside, rings were all free...thanks to moreys.I too, can vouch for moreys , I've got one happy engine. Interesting Russ, I just read jabiru SB saying that additives or upper cyl lubricant should not be used. I personally don't have a problem with people using it, just thought I'd mention the SB. I don't think jabiru have the answers( any of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Planesmaker, was that in a mandatory service bulletin or an advisory service letter? I've had a quickish scan of the SB's and couldn't locate one that related specifically to fuel additives. Did you mean JSL007-5 Alcohol Lead Compression Ratio Fuel Guidance ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planesmaker Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 In the latest head inspection and through bolt replacement SB. ( pretty sure that's where I read it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 You guys should know that the addition of oil exponentially increases the chance of detonation as you increase the quantity, so please errr on very small additions of UCL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 In the latest head inspection and through bolt replacement SB. ( pretty sure that's where I read it) Yep thanks. That's the one. JSL014-1 Jabiru Cylinder Head Inspection And although it appears to be advisory rather than mandatory, the injunction on page 11 is pretty unambiguous: "viii. DO NOT use top end cylinder lubricants or fuel additives." Still, I suppose that's where the term "Experimental" comes into the equation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 It's simple physics. If the main jets were correct before the additive the engine will run lean after the oil is added, so on the one hand you are adding lubricant but on the other you have a better chance of overheating, and a lot of people have had that, haven't they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDallas Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Joe, I guess the answers you get from CAMit or Jabairu would depend on what questions you asked.If you didn't than maybe you should sit down and draw up a list of questions and fire them off to CAMit - then you've started the conversation and hopefully you'll get information you need to make a sound decision. You are right, however at the time I sent the email I did not know the right questions to ask. There email said that they would have a US distributor by Oshkosh. I talked to Pete from Jabiru at SunNfun and got his view on both engines, of course in his view the Jabiru is the best choice and they have solved all their problems. I'm sure when I talk to the US distributor for Camit the response will be the Camit Engine is the best choice and they have solved all their problems. This forum has been great to help get additional views on these engine ( thanks to all who replied ) Some points that may or may not matter. Camit Solid lifters should add more HP Oil injection system is needed if you can't get to the airport weekly Jabiru Roller cam allows for steeper ramps should add more HP. Nikasil Cylinders should stop the rust problem. Recessed pistons to prevent major engine damage if a valve doesn't close fast enough. Both Companies believe they solved the problems with the thru bolt, valve geometry and the flywheel bolts. I think the fallout between these two companies is not a good thing, two heads are better than one. I am concerned with who will be making the parts for Jabiru. My view Thanks All Joe D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 It's simple physics. If the main jets were correct before the additive the engine will run lean after the oil is added, so on the one hand you are adding lubricant but on the other you have a better chance of overheating, and a lot of people have had that, haven't they. Well that conclusion requires a goodly leap I think. It's quite possibly one of the reasons Turbs, but as nobody seems to do more than a superficial investigation into engine incidents, we don't know what role UCL's play in the alleged flood of Jab failures do we? Still, caution would seem to be advisable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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