Guest Fresno Jab Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Hi to all, I live in Central California and recently purchased a Jabiru J230. I am hoping someone can give me a few tips on proper landing technique for the airplane. It seem like on almost every landing the nose wants to wander back and forth....I am at 68-70 kts on short final to landing, with full flaps. I am having a very difficult time keeping the nose on the centerline just before touchdown. It seems to really move around about 6-8 feet above the runway surface. Have about 18 hours in the plane now with about 25 landings. Trying to stay light on the rudder pedals but seems that plane will not stay straight and wanders almost every time. Had several ballooned landings and also quite a few where the plane is at a pretty severe angle to the centerline (tough on landing gear & tires). Just hoping that someone can give me a few tips on what may be the problem. Controls are very mushy at and just before touchdown... Any help or advice is appreciated. Hope I can participate in the forum often. Thanks, Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Try to make sure you don't overcontrol or cross controls. There's not a lot of control authority at low speeds but the 230 is not the worst of them. Still keep the weight off the nosewheel after landing. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Try 70kn over the fence with flaps at take off position for a few landings, wash off speed over the keys. This will get you on the runway a tad faster and help stop the ballooning you get. Full flaps take a fair while to master. Probably a hundred or so before I got it right. I still prefer half flaps, except on short runways. Apart from X wind landings, I have never had the nose do what you describe. Just wondering if the flap adjustments are correct. Let's know the outcome sometime. PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roscoe Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Phil what is the book recommended speed for the 230 with full flaps. I have a late model 170 which recommends 65kts with full flap and am wondering if our new mate is approaching a bit too fast? Try 70kn over the fence with flaps at take off position for a few landings, wash off speed over the keys. This will get you on the runway a tad faster and help stop the ballooning you get.Full flaps take a fair while to master. Probably a hundred or so before I got it right. I still prefer half flaps, except on short runways. Apart from X wind landings, I have never had the nose do what you describe. Just wondering if the flap adjustments are correct. Let's know the outcome sometime. PHIL. I have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 70 kts seems a lot more than 1.3 times Vso for a Jabiru. Surely 55 is nearer the mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Craig I own a 230 and feel a little qualified to answer.... If you come in fast and put the nose immediately on the deck then there will almost certainly be a bit of left and right required to maintain control, the faster you are the more exaggerated the oscillations to the point it can almost feel like a car on an icy road..... the trick is not to come in fast and keep the nose off the ground for as long as you humanely can....if you do that when it comes down it'll be traveling slowly and wont deviate like it will if its fast..... Touchdown speed is important (as per the POH), keeping the nose off the ground for as long as possible (using progressively more back stick pressure until you at full back) is more important..... The general rule for any tricycle undercarriage aircraft is that the mains are strong, the nose undercarriage less so...in keeping it off the ground you reduce the stresses it has to undergo and that isn't just a jabiru thing.... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Hi Craig - not so sure you need to be too light on the rudder pedals either as you come in, the jabs i've flown need to be shown who's boss... and as others have said, once down, keep that nose wheel up as long as you can and keep the stick back even when the nose is down while rolling to try to keep as much of the weight off the nose as you can until it slows down. For me, once I know I am down and will not be needing a go-around, i get the flaps up to get the weight on the mains as soon as possible. That's just what works for me, and of course, POH speeds and all that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 ... and welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 CraigI own a 230 and feel a little qualified to answer.... If you come in fast and put the nose immediately on the deck then there will almost certainly be a bit of left and right required to maintain control, the faster you are the more exaggerated the oscillations to the point it can almost feel like a car on an icy road..... the trick is not to come in fast and keep the nose off the ground for as long as you humanely can....if you do that when it comes down it'll be traveling slowly and wont deviate like it will if its fast..... Touchdown speed is important (as per the POH), keeping the nose off the ground for as long as possible (using progressively more back stick pressure until you at full back) is more important..... The general rule for any tricycle undercarriage aircraft is that the mains are strong, the nose undercarriage less so...in keeping it off the ground you reduce the stresses it has to undergo and that isn't just a jabiru thing.... Andy That is pretty much the case for any aeroplane, however if FresnoJab is used to heavier aircraft and those flown in the 'plant it on' way, then he will find a major adjustment is needed along the lines you describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I approach at 70 knots in gusty conditions but 60 - 65 in normal conditions. I think 70 is a little fast in good conditions and below 60 need to be very careful as control is not as effective at low speeds as mentioned already, 55 is a short field speed and probably not for low hour pilots. I think your problems are related to speed. Slow down late downwind and get 1st stage of flap, on base establish 65 knots, on final keep 65 knots and adjust height with power and more flap as required, when you round out at around 15-20 feet do not worry about speed any more just focus on power, runway and flare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fresno Jab Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Wow! What a great group... thanks for all of the tips. Yes I am more familiar with a heavier aircraft. Most time is in a Piper Cherokee. These lighter birds require a bit more finesse I am sure. Will try to make touchdown closer to 60-65 and see how that works. also work on flying with the rudder more to see how that feels and get accustom to the characteristics. Thanks again to all for the help. Like anything new it will take practice and time I guess. I look forward to participating in the forum in the future. Sounds like you guys have "great" info to share on the Jab. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fresno Jab Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 That is pretty much the case for any aeroplane, however if FresnoJab is used to heavier aircraft and those flown in the 'plant it on' way, then he will find a major adjustment is needed along the lines you describe. Car on icy road nails it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Hiya Fresno, I can't tell you much about the Jabiru,. . . . less than 10 Hrs on type ! But when I flew one for the first time, I'd been regularly flying Piper Warrior ( PA28 161 + R200 ) and they are such a lovely old bird, no bad habits, rudder not needed most of the time, ( good footrest though ! ! ) . . . easy peasy to land, . . .that they tend to make you lazy ! ! When you jump into a really light machine, it's all suddenly different of course, Different landing speeds, loads less inertia, and quite often, less control authority to play with at the lower end of the speed range. Listen to the the Guys and Girls from the Wide Brown Land ( ! ) . . . .one of those buggers designed the thing ! Plenty of them here as you've already discovered. Welcome to the forum, please let us know how you progress with the new toy Sir ! Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fresno Jab Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I think you are dead right on Phil...my old plane was a PA28 151, almost too easy to land. Will continue to work on skills. Love the Wide Brown Land comment !!! Have a pint on me !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Forget about being light (or heavy) on the rudder, just use "sufficient" to keep the nose straight. I think it will fall into place then. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Phil what is the book recommended speed for the 230 with full flaps. 80kn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Your 60 to 65 knots touch down speed seems awfully high. The rest there is wheel borrowing and potential ground loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 You might have to "borrow" a wheel, if you wheelbarrow it , ha ha.. The threshold speed depends on the actual weight, as well as the wind gusts,etc If you are a jockey sized person and the tanks are nearly empty, it's a different situation to when you have two Sumo wrestlers and a full tank of fuel.. Flare not too high and hold it off and keep the weight off the nosewheel. Use the rudder for direction initially. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Just reread Craig's post to make sure that he is getting the see sawing BEFORE he contacts the runway. Nothing to do with wheel barrowing. I find this very unusual unless excessive rudder input is applied. Camel has posted the classic approach for the 230. What I suggested was to use half flaps for a while before trying to master full flap landings, consequently a slightly higher approach speed, round out and gradual stick back to settle on mains at or near stall. Mostly I use half flap unless near nil wind conditions. The remainder of flap is used if too high and I look like missing my touch down point. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 It seems to really move around about 6-8 feet above the runway surface. You've got lot's of advice so far so I'll try and keep it short. You mention it moves around a lot at 6-8ft or so off the ground? Couple of questions regarding that: Are you at a high angle of attack at this point? and when you land do you feel like you've 'dropped' it on rather than flown it on? If that is the case I'd suggest you are rounding out to much in that first phase and not getting into the nice ground effect area - so you end up pulling back and 'waffling', or stooging - often accompanied by the stall horn and dropping onto the runway. I only mention this because when coming from a larger plane, with much more inertia and weight, that round out height (or phase one) would be fantastic as you have the right combination to settle it on, but being light and nibble you have to get a bit lower in phase one, and then start the landing phase two. (i.e. the hold off) I'll probably get boo'd at, but maybe try a flat power on approach a couple times (keep that nose wheel off however!) but that way you might be able to find the ground and the sweet spot to level off at. Ps. I'm not an instructor, but I've had a mix of aircraft type experience and this is something that I notice people do, and I've done myself. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Your 60 to 65 knots touch down speed seems awfully high. The rest there is wheel borrowing and potential ground loop. Risk, not rest. Auto text interference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Thanks for Phil suggesting that someone reread the original post....I did that and my answer is not relevant to movement in the air....I thought it was movement after touchdown......Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Thanks for Phil suggesting that someone reread the original post....I did that and my answer is not relevant to movement in the air....I thought it was movement after touchdown......Sorry Forgiven! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I approach at 70 knots in gusty conditions but 60 - 65 in normal conditions. I think 70 is a little fast in good conditions and below 60 need to be very careful as control is not as effective at low speeds as mentioned already, 55 is a short field speed and probably not for low hour pilots. I think your problems are related to speed.Slow down late downwind and get 1st stage of flap, on base establish 65 knots, on final keep 65 knots and adjust height with power and more flap as required, when you round out at around 15-20 feet do not worry about speed any more just focus on power, runway and flare. Just another point, most GA pilots tend to round out high on approach to land and because of the heavier weight of GA planes it doesn't effect as much as light aircraft, it is important to round out as low as possible in light aircraft and it does make a difference. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flie43 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Great comments from all. I have about 400 hrs on my 230 and Camel, I think I fly very similar to you. I like to have the revs down to about 2000 by the end of downwind this then gets the speed close to flap speed by the turn onto base. I then drop 1 stage flaps and revs to 1500 to maintain 65 kts . Mid final, full flap and drop revs a little more. I like to keep a bit of power on as it flattens the approach and over the fence at 60 kts and get close to the runway and try not to land--slowly reducing power and grease it on. Sounds good and 7 out of 10 now are really good with a couple of ordinary ones every now and then. Hang in there as my first 3 months were terrible Terry 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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