Bruce Tuncks Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 A big factor in many ( not all) accidents is stupidity. The ones I know of ( taking off into low cloud and taking off downwind to wow the crowd with a stall just after the take-off) demonstrate this clearly. One way of reducing the number of stupid people in our ranks would be to introduce a real flight theory exam into the training. One that required being able to understand theory and do calculations. It has been suggested that if this were done with driving licenses then the road toll would fall by 75%. The stupidest people on the road do most of the carnage. Way too politically incorrect for it to happen with drivers licenses I bet. "Nasty elitist" I can hear them accuse me for suggesting it. Probably too incorrect for RAAus too AND it would reduce the number of new members coming in. So there are worse things than a bit of carnage huh. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Sounds like something right out of the CASA handbook. Less people flying the safer aviation is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-man Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 A big factor in many ( not all) accidents is stupidity. The ones I know of ( taking off into low cloud and taking off downwind to wow the crowd with a stall just after the take-off) demonstrate this clearly.One way of reducing the number of stupid people in our ranks would be to introduce a real flight theory exam into the training. One that required being able to understand theory and do calculations. It has been suggested that if this were done with driving licenses then the road toll would fall by 75%. The stupidest people on the road do most of the carnage. Way too politically incorrect for it to happen with drivers licenses I bet. "Nasty elitist" I can hear them accuse me for suggesting it. Probably too incorrect for RAAus too AND it would reduce the number of new members coming in. So there are worse things than a bit of carnage huh. As long as it is relevent to the flying we do, I don't have a problem. But why do we necesarilly have to go back to calculations when we have modern equipment to do the same thing. I can't find my logarithm book and I haven't used my slide rule for nearly fifty years. I really don't even see the need for a whiz wheel now when we fly with GPS, iPad and iPhone, all with aviation data loaded, as well as the required hard copy maps. I remember years ago having an arguement with a ppl holder who was sledging RA and saying that we didn't have to know the things she had to know. I asked her to explain great circles to me and the relevance they have to recreational flying. She didn't even know they were part of her training. I'd actually plug for a common sense requirement, but that would probably cut the numbers even more. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ev17ifly2 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 A big factor in many ( not all) accidents is stupidity. The ones I know of ( taking off into low cloud and taking off downwind to wow the crowd with a stall just after the take-off) demonstrate this clearly.One way of reducing the number of stupid people in our ranks would be to introduce a real flight theory exam into the training. One that required being able to understand theory and do calculations. It has been suggested that if this were done with driving licenses then the road toll would fall by 75%. The stupidest people on the road do most of the carnage. Way too politically incorrect for it to happen with drivers licenses I bet. "Nasty elitist" I can hear them accuse me for suggesting it. Probably too incorrect for RAAus too AND it would reduce the number of new members coming in. So there are worse things than a bit of carnage huh. Bruce, not sure where or how you aquired your pilots licence but I can assure you that when I was training for my RAA licence I DID sit a real flight theory exam. One that required an understanding of theory and calculations. I tend to agree with K Man however. I now understand the theory and concepts required for safe flight and navigation and employ today's technology to achieve that. I too have misplaced my log tables and slide rule 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I asked her to explain great circles to me and the relevance they have to recreational flying. Ok now you're giving me ATPL theory flashback nightmares and I will probably wake suddenly tonight randomly screaming "RHUMB LINE!"............."LAMBERT'S CONFORMAL!"....... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 A big factor in many ( not all) accidents is stupidity. The ones I know of ( taking off into low cloud and taking off downwind to wow the crowd with a stall just after the take-off) demonstrate this clearly.One way of reducing the number of stupid people in our ranks would be to introduce a real flight theory exam into the training. One that required being able to understand theory and do calculations. It has been suggested that if this were done with driving licenses then the road toll would fall by 75%. The stupidest people on the road do most of the carnage. Way too politically incorrect for it to happen with drivers licenses I bet. "Nasty elitist" I can hear them accuse me for suggesting it. Probably too incorrect for RAAus too AND it would reduce the number of new members coming in. So there are worse things than a bit of carnage huh. Bruce I think you are confusing stupid individuals with those who aren't so intellectual. Some of the stupidest people actually have reasonable IQs. There is no reliable test for stupidity as stupidity can be very unpredictable, I myself have had the odd bout of stupidity but wouldn't class myself as dumb and am certainly capable of doing all ppl related calculations (a bit of refreshing no doubt could be required). I have no complaints with what I learnt (am still learning of course) under the RAA system. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I have had a lot of Doctor friends. I admire most of them and find them incredibly interesting because if you are dumb as Dog$*it, you aren't there.. They don't lack intelligence. I see open heart patients straight back to the meat pies, smokes and beer. All the good work is undone in 6 months. (Another "stuck" post. Included anyhow. Sorry if it is out of sequence) Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Something more relevant Bad judgement or bad attitude, rather than stupidity perhaps. Generally aviation has taken a dive in some ways. We have more technology than ever but IT thinking doesn't translate perfectly to the reality of being up in the air , with "REAL" perils, finding your way around, managing your fuel and track keeping. looking out for other aircraft, and pelicans, Keeping hydrated, doing good and practical radio calls. Keeping away from bad weather and landing the thing with gusts, thermals, sheep and kangaroos. Tying your plane down effectively. Optimising your chances of being found etc. There's a fair bit in all of this. When you get your certificate you are a long way from being as good as you should be to carry loved ones about with you. Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 A big factor in many ( not all) accidents is stupidity. The ones I know of ( taking off into low cloud and taking off downwind to wow the crowd with a stall just after the take-off) demonstrate this clearly.One way of reducing the number of stupid people in our ranks would be to introduce a real flight theory exam into the training. One that required being able to understand theory and do calculations. It has been suggested that if this were done with driving licenses then the road toll would fall by 75%. The stupidest people on the road do most of the carnage. Way too politically incorrect for it to happen with drivers licenses I bet. "Nasty elitist" I can hear them accuse me for suggesting it. Probably too incorrect for RAAus too AND it would reduce the number of new members coming in. So there are worse things than a bit of carnage huh. I would suggest that uneducated and stupid are often separate conditions. I have seen many educated people with no idea what they are doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Not sure the suggested extra knowledge would help really. In GA the exams do contain a lot of those very things and there are still similar lapses in common sense and resultant crashes in GA. Perhaps because even if you need to know these things for the exam you don't have to remember them to fly. And it doesn't take long and most people forget the stuff they don't use (AKA don't need to know). Doing stupid things is not just related to what you know or don't know. It's also related to personality, desire to show off etc, bravado, external perceived pressures of many sorts. They aren't things that really go away when you study or learn what's right for the exam. They simmer in the background and reappear later when the exams and the over-watch by instructors etc has gone. The only way you could get rid of those people with those traits is right at the beginning of training using a finely tuned and working crystal ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 It's not stupidiness its just sloppiness, people are evaluating risks and not assessing them properly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I wouldn't ban it on the grounds of being dangerous, but I'd love to see it banned on the grounds that we've trashed the joint and comprehensively proven we can't be trusted to leave a place as we found it. Bottles, tins, food scraps, toilet paper, human excrement (yes, human sh*t which has been contaminating the water supplies and does not decompose in the extreme cold). I mean, "we" (collectively the human race) really are such a pack of idiots who actually do need to be banned from doing many things. ...and dozens of dead bodies, which climbers occasionally come across; including probably the first to climb Everest: Mallory and Irvine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 My favourite OHS story just happened today. My daughter is a plant ecologist or something like that and travels around doing plant surveys. Today she arrived at a job in Southern Victoria to find the whole area had just been burned by the Parks Victoria people. The reason - OHS for the survey, as there were lots of snakes around. 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Here's a test of my idea. This forum contains a certain number of pilots, a percentage of the total and so will have that proportion of fatalities if there really is no correlation between stupidity (as measured by inability to do calculations) and fatality rate. So if this forum contains 8% then as a group we would have a fatality once a year on average. Given the actual % we could work out the expected number of fatalities. ( 8% = one in twelve and if there are 12 fatalities a year then we get one of them) I am willing to bet a bottle of nice South Australian red that this group averages less than half that number. Why? Because people who read and debate are not in the category of stupid . Yes I know that any of us ( me included) could do something really stupid next time we fly, but on average it will be somebody else. Any takers for the bet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Here's a test of my idea. This forum contains a certain number of pilots, a percentage of the total and so will have that proportion of fatalities if there really is no correlation between stupidity (as measured by inability to do calculations) and fatality rate. So if this forum contains 8% then as a group we would have a fatality once a year on average. Given the actual % we could work out the expected number of fatalities. ( 8% = one in twelve and if there are 12 fatalities a year then we get one of them)I am willing to bet a bottle of nice South Australian red that this group averages less than half that number. Why? Because people who read and debate are not in the category of stupid . Yes I know that any of us ( me included) could do something really stupid next time we fly, but on average it will be somebody else. Any takers for the bet? Now you're getting it. A lot of fatalities are voluntary; with some work and the right culture you can reduce your own risk way below the mean. The starting point of taking action to reduce fatalities starts with an analysis of the statistics, then grouping the causes, looking for any common denominators and then looking at what action may reduce or eliminate that group. Like the road toll, there is never one single cause or one single solution. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Just being on this forum exposes you to considerations of safety. It can hardly be a disadvantage to think about it. You might have a start on some but it's unending. I'm not a betting person and you are pretty thoughtful so I'm not taking you up on it. I did permutations and probabilities, at Uni years ago. But that's a bit removed from defining and identifying "risk" groups. With some individuals, I have been a fairly successful predictor of some who should do something else, but nowhere near 100% correct. It's not usually flying ability directly. More like management and planning lacking. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Not sure the suggested extra knowledge would help really.In GA the exams do contain a lot of those very things and there are still similar lapses in common sense and resultant crashes in GA. Perhaps because even if you need to know these things for the exam you don't have to remember them to fly. And it doesn't take long and most people forget the stuff they don't use (AKA don't need to know). Doing stupid things is not just related to what you know or don't know. It's also related to personality, desire to show off etc, bravado, external perceived pressures of many sorts. They aren't things that really go away when you study or learn what's right for the exam. They simmer in the background and reappear later when the exams and the over-watch by instructors etc has gone. The only way you could get rid of those people with those traits is right at the beginning of training using a finely tuned and working crystal ball. Exactly....the majority did what they did, knowing it was wrong. They had done it before usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 My favourite OHS story just happened today. My daughter is a plant ecologist or something like that and travels around doing plant surveys. Today she arrived at a job in Southern Victoria to find the whole area had just been burned by the Parks Victoria people. The reason - OHS for the survey, as there were lots of snakes around. Friend of mine works for qlds version of the same thing. He's a boots on the ground guy who hacks his way up creeks and ridges to do the cutting down and poisoning of growths of feral weeds and plants in the jungle. Helicoptered in and out, Climbs cliffs and hangs off ledges to do it. Job has to be done and there's no way to do it any other way. But they get paid bugger all because their award is the same one used for lawn trimmers and grass cutters who do council verges and walking paths. They can't get a pay rise because their award says so. But they can't argue they do more dangerous work nor for instance take video of their work to argue for better pay, because if they do OHS will close down their jobs. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 My favourite OHS story just happened today. My daughter is a plant ecologist or something like that and travels around doing plant surveys. Today she arrived at a job in Southern Victoria to find the whole area had just been burned by the Parks Victoria people. The reason - OHS for the survey, as there were lots of snakes around. I gave that story a "like", but what I really need is a "Bloody Morons" button. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Now you're getting it. A lot of fatalities are voluntary... I presume you're not saying they meant to crash, but in my experience sometimes that explanation seems most likely. Not much we can do about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 ... With some individuals, I have been a fairly successful predictor of some who should do something else, but nowhere near 100% correct. It's not usually flying ability directly. More like management and planning lacking. Nev ...also impulsiveness and bloody-minded ignorance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 My favourite OHS story just happened today. My daughter is a plant ecologist or something like that and travels around doing plant surveys. Today she arrived at a job in Southern Victoria to find the whole area had just been burned by the Parks Victoria people. The reason - OHS for the survey, as there were lots of snakes around. this sort of thing makes me wonder how the people involved have gotten this far in life without getting the living crap beaten out of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 The "Goings on" in some national parks, is ( can't think of the right word )..........eg, i know of several, where some staff earn a great side job, shooting feral pigs in particular, storing the carcasses in fridge boxes, then SOLD, and pocketing the money. "Parks" pay the electricity usage also. So..........Mr parks employee, get's his salary, but spends ??? time chasing pigs, in employer time getting payed, also runs around out of employer time, doing same thing...... Not a bad lurk. You / me, can't get within cooee, of accessing same areas ( national parks etc, being breeding grounds for all sorts of feral animals ), i'm not advocating open slather in parks, but open it up for credentialed shooters. Same goes for areas of parks, that are put off limits to you/me, but parks invite their own "friends" ( allow ) them unfetted access.....access to fishing spots etc, by tracks etc. We get about, the proliferation of " closed, no entry, etc etc " signs, is gob smacking. They are hell bent on shutting these places off. The "in your face" signage etc, leaves one with the feeling of " hate it, hate it" i'll give all parks etc a big miss. And..........that's their agenda. Kakadu NT, case in point, for yrs it's been tabbed Kakadon't. From time to time, headlines read, visitor numbers are less and less.........why..........."parks" heads in sand, just don't get it. Ayres Rock.........oops sorry...Ularu, christ, the garbage going on there, it'll be closed one day.......mark my words. Had me rant......... R 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I presume you're not saying they meant to crash, but in my experience sometimes that explanation seems most likely. Not much we can do about them. No, I'm not saying they meant to crash; in most cases a typical trait is to tell people how "safe" they are. They just cut all the safety corners which would keep them out of trouble. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Too tuff for that sissy stuff. That's one manifestation of an unfortunate attitude. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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