willedoo Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 A Significant fraction of the Crimea are EXTREMEMLY anti-russian. the Crimean Tartars. Treated by the USSR like cattle and diplaced out of their homeland to make room for russian settlers.The Tartars would not have voted for joining Russia, That would be like asking the Palestinians to vote to dissolve Palestine and become Isrelis, and yet Russia reported a 96% vote to join Russia? Then there is the population of Ukrainian speaking ethnic Ukrainians, do you think they would ALL vote to join russia? The referendum was rigged to a fare-thee-well. Same system as Australia and NZ - majority rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi303 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 There is a difference between a true majority and a pre-stuffed ballot box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willedoo Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Kiwi, do you have documented proof, or have you read that somewhere. A verified source would be nice. Otherwise, worldwide, any election in a country where we don't like their politics, we can just claim it's rigged. I don't know of any reliable independant third party reports from election observers in the Crimean election, but I might be missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Malaysia is an insanely corrupt country, MA was considered to be nonviable prior to MH370 but kept afloat with tax payers money and then MH17 came along and now its all over https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Ibrahim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Being an independent reporter or investigative journalist in Russia is an extreme health hazard. On the other side USA is a giant bully that want's to be the worlds policeman. Has evolved into that since the second world war, due to which it became very wealthy and powerful. Crimea is Russia's warm water Port and a strategic part of it's Naval resources, and could hardly be expected to give that up. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willedoo Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Being an independent reporter or investigative journalist in Russia is an extreme health hazard. On the other side USA is a giant bully that want's to be the worlds policeman. Has evolved into that since the second world war, due to which it became very wealthy and powerful. Crimea is Russia's warm water Port and a strategic part of it's Naval resources, and could hardly be expected to give that up. Nev A good assessment, Nev. The friction between some ethnic Ukrainians and the ethnic Russians goes back to WW2 when the Soviet Union was fighting Nazi Germany and large sections of Ukraine society collaborated with the Germans, hence the present day Banderists. It probably goes back even further to resentment at the communists taking power in the early 20's, and the harsh way the USSR treated it's citizens. The current friction between the US and Russia over Ukraine seemed to start a couple of years before the coup in Kiev, with the planned NATO missile defence shield. After the fall of the Soviet Union, there was a non binding agreement that NATO wouldn't expand their Eastern boundaries. Russia saw them break this promise and move right up to their borders, with Belarus and Ukraine remaining as the last buffer zones. With the missile defence shield, the reason given was European protection from Iranian and North Korean missiles. Russia was part of a formal dialogue agreement, and kept pushing for NATO to put in writing their words that the defence shield would not be targeted at Russia. NATO repeatedly refused to do this, so Russia pulled out of the co-operation agreement. So NATO started rattling their sabre and Putin decided to show that he had one as well. When Putin saw them trying to take Ukraine, his red line was crossed.The rest is history. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi303 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Kiwi, do you have documented proof, or have you read that somewhere. I have friends (online, haven't actually met and kissed those pretty girls) from Alchevs'k, a town only a few miles outside Luhans'k, one of the capitals of the two breakaway rebel areas. Of those friends, one left the war zone for Moscow, the others have left the war zone for Kharkiv, Dnepropovsk, and other points west/northwest. A pretty good reflection of the Ukraine/Russian split ratio within East Ukraine and the Donbass. I trust them and their local news and firsthand views far more than I ever would trust the mainstream media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willedoo Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I trust them and their local news and firsthand views far more than I ever would trust the mainstream media. Same here, Kiwi303, I have several friends and acquaintances on both sides of the fence in regular email contact. A friend in Kharkov once sent me an illustrated map showing Ukraine eventually split into three. I didn't press him on the meaning of the third region, on the western border of the country. I'm under no delusion that all elections in the region are fair and honest. In the case of Crimea, an unrigged ballot would most likely have delivered a 60% majority based on demographics. They vary from time to time, but roughly 60% Russian, 25% Ukranian, 15% Tartar. 60% would have carried the day on it's own, but tweaking to 95% has more political and propaganda value even if they don't need to rig it to win. But at the end of the day, 60% majority rules. Here in Australia, TPP results mean 45% of the voters want nothing to do with the government. So the mandate in Crimea on ethnic lines is 5% larger then what we have here. Elections in those countries seem to rely on intimidation more than outright box stuffing from what I've seen. They don't seem to have voter privacy and have a lot of goons hanging around intimidating the voters into a certain vote. The sad thing about the whole affair is that resentment and hatred will linger for many years after any peace settlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 The aftermath of wars is a residue of hatred that can last for 100's of years. The EU has at least avoided a war among the warring tribes of Europe for a fair while, and that was one of the aims of it's formation, otherwise it's a trade cartel. Economically the common currency is inappropriate when individual governments have such diverse policies. The last large transfer of money to Greece saw only 500Mill going to Greece itself, with billions going to the lenders of capital to ensure they don't lose out. That's no solution. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 The aftermath of wars is a residue of hatred that can last for 100's of years. Nev Nev. . . .From what my Scottie friends tell me, theres still visceral hatred harking back to the battle of Culloden. . . . which the SNP harp on about to whip people into a nationalistic frenzy of "Let's leave the union " etc. . . . with the price of oil at $48.27 and falling weekly, I do not think that they are going to be able to fincance independence on North sea oil. . . . And My Irish mates despair about all the annual kerfuffle created by the protestant Loyal Orangemen's victory marches with their orange sashes and bowler hats, marching past catholic areas in Northern Ireland during the "Marching Season" . . .celebrating victory in the battle of the Boyne 300 odd years ago. . . . What the hell happened to human intelligence and the desire to make things better and improve themselves. . . . . The aftermath of wars. . . . At this rate; I actually think that the human race will be very lucky indeed if it HAS another 300 years to sort out all the BS in the world as it stands at the moment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 On the subject of "External Influences fomenting problems" briefly touched upon above,. . . Les, my Internet Radio ( Oldies Music - DooWop Cove ) operator friend in upstate New York sent me the flowchart below, detailing America's penchant for interfering in the business of other countries,. . . .I can't repeat what he said about a certain Mr. Bush, ( senior ) and his neocon associates. . .as this is a family site. Make of that what you will. . . . ( said Phil. . .) with apologies to Andy Slinger ( wasn't me wot copied that yer honour ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 With the world warming at its present rate and the unknowable whereabouts of climate tipping points, I think it may be folly to question where human society will be in 300 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driftamark Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Hell or Heaven 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Hell or Heaven Oh noo.... Don't bring religion into it please! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 probably for the same reasons every other airline flew the same route, Singapore, KLM, Air china, Asiana, the list goes on.. If the misslle was fired 5 mins later, it would have been a Singapore Airlines aircraft blow to pieces.. Seems there are quite a few irresponsible airlines that don't mind putting their passengers and their staff at mortal risk, especially considering there was a warning about the danger in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 It may be that there was little alternative. ICAO has a network of treaties around the world. Airlines cannot just choose where to fly regardless. I suspect that Dutchroll would know much more about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Oh noo.... Don't bring religion into it please! Shouldn't this be on the atheist's thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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