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XAIR UL Training and 2 Stroke


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Hi All,

 

It has recently come to my attention that I need to be "type" trained in my XAIR Ultralight.

 

I trained in a JABIRU and have just purchased an XAir UL 618.

 

I was under the impression that I could now go and fly a Nose Weel, 3 Axis , RA Aircraft, but I was apparently mistaken and need to be signed off in any different aircraft I fly? Is that correct? Sorry for my naive approach, but my aircraft rego does state "Type" as 3 Axis and my licence states "group" as 3 axis, hence my confusion on "type" training.

 

I don't know where I can fly an X air like mine to be signed off. Mine is not insured for training purposes. Any help would be much appreciated!

 

Also, 2 Stroke Endorsement.

 

Where can I do that in Victoria? I presume if someone can "type" train me in an XAir they can also endorse me for 2S?

 

 

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Cut and pasted from the definitions in the Ops manual...

 

Aeroplane Type

 

Aeroplane undercarriage configuration, design features, flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia), stall speeds and normal/emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.

 

I think that the XAir has a very different flight envelope to a Jab, so might be wise to get some training regardless.

 

 

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I think the type training is just for low power...?Any instructor should be able to test and sign you off.

Well there's no Low performance/high performance endorsement anymore. I asked my local CFI and he is going to talk to RA to see if he can do it. But he said that because he isn't Type Trained in an XAir he couldn't do it most likely.

It didn't really sound right to me. I would have thought as long as it's 3 axis, nose wheel I should be able to fly it. Except I still need 2S endorsement

 

 

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Oh for sure. It is very different! I actually had not read that part from ops manual. However my CFI also told me ( when I asked about training in a Thruster) that a thruster is again a different type that the XAir so that wouldn't cover me. But a thruster is a low speed high drag plane, similar characteristics, however it's a tail wheel.... Surely I could train in that and be signed off for type?

 

Cut and pasted from the definitions in the Ops manual...

Aeroplane Type

 

Aeroplane undercarriage configuration, design features, flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia), stall speeds and normal/emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.

 

I think that the XAir has a very different flight envelope to a Jab, so might be wise to get some training regardless.[/QUOT

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2 stroke endorsement intrigues me. I leant to fly Group A in a Tecnam 912uls 4 stroke but do I have a 4 stroke endorsement ?. i learnt Group D in an Aerochute with a 503 2 stroke but I don't physically have a 2 stroke endorsement. Whats hard about a 2 stroke - plugs, fuel and air filter , gear box oil. lot less maintenance than a 4 stroke.

 

With the x-air question, if you hold endorsements for the configuration of the Aircraft that should be all you NEED but flying with someone experienced would be a benefit. Plenty of upper air work to sort out stall and glide speeds at different stages of flap etc.

 

What if your getting a single seater, what could you do then.

 

 

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2 stroke endorsement intrigues me. I leant to fly Group A in a Tecnam 912uls 4 stroke but do I have a 4 stroke endorsement ?. i learnt Group D in an Aerochute with a 503 2 stroke but I don't physically have a 2 stroke endorsement. Whats hard about a 2 stroke - plugs, fuel and air filter , gear box oil. lot less maintenance than a 4 stroke.With the x-air question, if you hold endorsements for the configuration of the Aircraft that should be all you NEED but flying with someone experienced would be a benefit. Plenty of upper air work to sort out stall and glide speeds at different stages of flap etc.

What if your getting a single seater, what could you do then.

I think what they want you to learn about 2 strokes is engine management in regard to cold seizes and the like.

Single seater.....just find a two seat something of similar performance/handling. eg: my 95:10 was quite similar to a Drifter (high wing, tail dragger, similar stall etc)

 

 

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2 stroke endorsement intrigues me. I leant to fly Group A in a Tecnam 912uls 4 stroke but do I have a 4 stroke endorsement ?. i learnt Group D in an Aerochute with a 503 2 stroke but I don't physically have a 2 stroke endorsement. Whats hard about a 2 stroke - plugs, fuel and air filter , gear box oil. lot less maintenance than a 4 stroke.With the x-air question, if you hold endorsements for the configuration of the Aircraft that should be all you NEED but flying with someone experienced would be a benefit. Plenty of upper air work to sort out stall and glide speeds at different stages of flap etc.

What if your getting a single seater, what could you do then.

Exactly! Apparently 2 strokes are more unreliable. But aren't all engines? They should all be treated as if they just may fail. The only endorsement I don't hold for the XAir is a 2 stroke. But as stated above the ops manual does define type. And I guess the XAir is a high drag low performance aircraft therefore I must be signed off by an examiner with the typetraining themselves

 

 

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Well ops 7 when it was released had several threads running on the drafting ans head scratching that it produced - if interested search threads for the one called "RAA Ops Manual" and you can get a feel for the oddness that is the wording of Ops 7

 

Your issue of type training is a kicker - because it does not work as written in OPs 7 ... and I have never received a response from OPs Manager on any email sent on issues other than it will be dealt with in the next update.

 

Functional issues with this area:

 

Definition of Aeroplane Type defines it as:

 

  1. undercarriage configuration,
     
     
  2. design features,
     
     
  3. flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia),
     
     
  4. stall speeds and
     
     
  5. normal/ emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.
     
     

 

 

Arguably

 

1 is covered by endorsements of TW, RU, WF and WH (NW was removed in Ops 7 but unhelpfully remains referenced in summary tables)

 

2 2S falls within this

 

3 and 4 were discontinued with Ops 7 and this wording left in in error (??) - old endorsements of HP and LP covered this - so this part of the definition is out of date

 

5 is not covered by OPs but by handbook from manufacturers

 

So applying the definition of Aeroplane Type against the certificate endorsements that exist today you need to

 

1. have a valid certificate (gives you nosewheel)

 

2. need a 2S endorsement - obtained from any instructor with 2S on any aircraft that is 2S

 

hopefully the Ops Manager comes back with a similar interpretation to your instructor because Ops 7 did not properly or effectively create a requirement for 'type endorsement' to any/all individual aircraft only a requirement to be within the Endorsements on your certificate because despite the wording in 2.01 (17) it actually cannot apply or any homebuilt aircraft would be an individual endorsement ... and no instructor could fly it as they have to hold type endorsement (2.07 applies to instructor as pilots)

 

Basic f*ck up on drafting here and its all in the hands of the Ops Manager to fix

 

 

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Well ops 7 when it was released had several threads running on the drafting ans head scratching that it produced - if interested search threads for the one called "RAA Ops Manual" and you can get a feel for the oddness that is the wording of Ops 7Your issue of type training is a kicker - because it does not work as written in OPs 7 ... and I have never received a response from OPs Manager on any email sent on issues other than it will be dealt with in the next update.

 

Functional issues with this area:

 

Definition of Aeroplane Type defines it as:

 

  1. undercarriage configuration,
     
     
  2. design features,
     
     
  3. flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia),
     
     
  4. stall speeds and
     
     
  5. normal/ emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.
     
     

 

 

Arguably

 

1 is covered by endorsements of TW, RU, WF and WH (NW was removed in Ops 7 but unhelpfully remains referenced in summary tables)

 

2 2S falls within this

 

3 and 4 were discontinued with Ops 7 and this wording left in in error (??) - old endorsements of HP and LP covered this - so this part of the definition is out of date

 

5 is not covered by OPs but by handbook from manufacturers

 

So applying the definition of Aeroplane Type against the certificate endorsements that exist today you need to

 

1. have a valid certificate (gives you nosewheel)

 

2. need a 2S endorsement - obtained from any instructor with 2S on any aircraft that is 2S

 

hopefully the Ops Manager comes back with a similar interpretation to your instructor because Ops 7 did not properly or effectively create a requirement for 'type endorsement' to any/all individual aircraft only a requirement to be within the Endorsements on your certificate because despite the wording in 2.01 (17) it actually cannot apply or any homebuilt aircraft would be an individual endorsement ... and no instructor could fly it as they have to hold type endorsement (2.07 applies to instructor as pilots)

 

Basic f*ck up on drafting here and its all in the hands of the Ops Manager to fix

Agree that the manual is a sh1tfight.....but how do you arrive at the conclusion that a Jab has a similar flight envelope to an X-Air?...just wondering

 

 

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Well there's no Low performance/high performance endorsement anymore. I asked my local CFI and he is going to talk to RA to see if he can do it. But he said that because he isn't Type Trained in an XAir he couldn't do it most likely.It didn't really sound right to me. I would have thought as long as it's 3 axis, nose wheel I should be able to fly it. Except I still need 2S endorsement

who said there is no HP /LP endorsement anymore. There might be a need for a facts check

 

 

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who said there is no HP /LP endorsement anymore. There might be a need for a facts check

Terryc, have a look at the RAAus web site.

https://www.raa.asn.au/forms

 

There are NO forms for a LP endorsement. 2 stroke yes. This changed a while back. An endorsement is now required for the type.

 

 

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who said there is no HP /LP endorsement anymore. There might be a need for a facts check

Might be in need of a facts check... They no longer exist. The Ops has changed quite a bit I gather.

I had a response from Michael Coates today, he is the importer and salesman of X Airs in Australia.

 

This is a snippet of what he said to me regarding 2stroke.

 

"a lot of the flying schools were doing it hard several years ago and a few flying school instructors ended up as board members. They then came up with all of these stupid endorsements because this would get people back into their flying schools to get the add-ons to make them legal to fly. Unfortunately it didn't work and a lot of people continue to fly without the endorsements quite happily, some people have been flying two-stroke engines for 25 years and still don't have the two-stroke engine endorsement. I don't believe there is any requirement now for you to have anything because the system from what I understand has mostly been abandoned as a stupid idea from what I have been told."

 

 

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Terryc, have a look at the RAAus web site.https://www.raa.asn.au/forms

There are NO forms for a LP endorsement. 2 stroke yes. This changed a while back. An endorsement is now required for the type.

Could you explain how or where you saw an endorsement for The "type" that I am referring to? Apparently it's not actually am endorsement. It's virtually just a flight/competency check in different aircraft

 

 

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Could you explain how or where you saw an endorsement for The "type" that I am referring to? Apparently it's not actually am endorsement. It's virtually just a flight/competency check in different aircraft

Sorry Jimmy, not an endorsement as such just a check flight on type. The forms cover the types of endorsement/s available.

 

 

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HI Jimmy,

 

I asked the same question to Ra-Aus over xmas as I trained in a Foxbat and just finished building a X-Air standard with 582,

 

I hope my below the dotted line reply clears up your question :)

 

you will only need a 2S endorsing :)

 

Pete

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Pete,

 

If you can send in logbook evidence of aircrafts you have flown which are two stroke we will be able to look into endorsing you with 2s,

 

as for LP we no longer endorse as per the Operations Manual.

 

Thank You,

 

The Membership Team

 

Members Database Administrator

 

E: [email protected]

 

W: www.raa.asn.au

 

T: (02) 6280 4700

 

F: (02) 6280 4775

 

 

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Individual aircraft endorsements were not required, in the past . Why would you talk about all the other differences based on "characteristics" if you have to have an every different aircraft endorsement?

 

However it would be unclever to just hop into a different plane and just fly it without some preparation/familiarity.. If you are $#1t hot it should show very quickly. It shouldn't be a money raising thing, but IF I was owner of a plane you hadn't flown, and I just let you go it would appear a bit casual. Familiarisation would be the thing to do. It would appear negligent to not check your currency and skill level. Nev

 

 

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Might be in need of a facts check... They no longer exist. The Ops has changed quite a bit I gather.I had a response from Michael Coates today, he is the importer and salesman of X Airs in Australia.

This is a snippet of what he said to me regarding 2stroke.

 

"a lot of the flying schools were doing it hard several years ago and a few flying school instructors ended up as board members. They then came up with all of these stupid endorsements because this would get people back into their flying schools to get the add-ons to make them legal to fly. Unfortunately it didn't work and a lot of people continue to fly without the endorsements quite happily, some people have been flying two-stroke engines for 25 years and still don't have the two-stroke engine endorsement. I don't believe there is any requirement now for you to have anything because the system from what I understand has mostly been abandoned as a stupid idea from what I have been told."

If Michael Coates swore that the sun would rise tomorrow, I'd be out buying up all the candles I could get hold of tonight.

 

 

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Hi All,It has recently come to my attention that I need to be "type" trained in my XAIR Ultralight.

 

I trained in a JABIRU and have just purchased an XAir UL 618.

 

I was under the impression that I could now go and fly a Nose Weel, 3 Axis , RA Aircraft, but I was apparently mistaken and need to be signed off in any different aircraft I fly? Is that correct? Sorry for my naive approach, but my aircraft rego does state "Type" as 3 Axis and my licence states "group" as 3 axis, hence my confusion on "type" training.

 

I don't know where I can fly an X air like mine to be signed off. Mine is not insured for training purposes. Any help would be much appreciated!

 

Also, 2 Stroke Endorsement.

 

Where can I do that in Victoria? I presume if someone can "type" train me in an XAir they can also endorse me for 2S?

Hi Jimmyhuf

It is important to learn about operating two stroke aircraft engines, this will include correct warm up, climp power and management of temps etc (cold seizure problems will visit you if things are not done correctly).

 

I learnt alot when I did my training years ago.

 

You should be better for this training.

 

You will enjoy the Xair I have had very enjoyable flights in a 582 powered Xair.

 

The attached text below is from the current RAAus site.

 

Cheers and safe flying Mike

 

UNIT 1.13 – TWO STROKE ENDORSEMENT SYLLABUS ELEMENT: 1. Two Stroke Engines Flying Standard Before Solo Pilot Certificate Inst Rating 1.1 Theory and Pre-flight • Basic theory of two stroke motors • Describe the use of CHT and EGT gauges with relation to two stroke aeroplane operation • Describe the difference between oil injection and premixed two stroke fuel and lubrication • Conduct pre-flight on engine with respect to fluid levels, type of oil and quantity in rotary valve lubrication system 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1.2 In Flight Operation • Conduct start up with or without choke and/or primer • Conduct engine idle at appropriate RPM to avoid engine rough running • Conduct warm up and run up procedures IAW engine manufacturers’ manual • Conduct in-flight operation with special reference to in-flight monitoring of EGT, CHT and water temperature instruments • Conduct high powered RPM operations with awareness of engine power band and immediate power delay in go– around situation • Conduct low powered descents with regard to appropriate engine management practices 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.3 Refuelling • Conducts refuelling operation with due regard to engine’s lubrication system. (Oil injected versus pre-mixed) • Consideration of fuel colour differences (Oil injected versus pre-mixed) 3 3 2 2 1 1 -End of Two Stroke Endorsement Syllabus

 

 

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Hello jimmy

 

I have been flying behind two stroke now for over 20 years or so with out a single problem yes I beleive all engines will fail but good engine management practise and always fly with a safe landing area in yor sites will keep you happy with your choice of engine , they all stop just a matter of when and where !

 

But I beleive a two stroke is as good as any if treated right my two bob worth .

 

Doug

 

Learnt in a two stroke and still fly one 20 year or so later

 

 

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Terryc, have a look at the RAAus web site.https://www.raa.asn.au/forms

There are NO forms for a LP endorsement. 2 stroke yes. This changed a while back. An endorsement is now required for the type.

Well I've heard from a number of people suggesting that it does, so I asked my cfi when I did my bfr, [18/12/15] he said as you say that they no longer exist and promptly endorsed me for all the aircraft I've flown in my log book that he has knowledge of but even so I still was not convinced. By chance my bfr and PC became due at the same time and when my email arrived from raa to say all was well and my certificate would be in the mail came which I still have it was minus as you would expect the LP/HP endorsements. Here was an oppurtunity to ring raa and get a final word and put my mind at rest so I did. I was put through to the appropiate people the responce " that's ok it would be on my certificate when it arrived and true to their word there they were all nine of them including HP and LP, hence my comment a fact check is in order.

 

Terry

 

 

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HI Jimmy,I asked the same question to Ra-Aus over xmas as I trained in a Foxbat and just finished building a X-Air standard with 582,

I hope my below the dotted line reply clears up your question :)

 

you will only need a 2S endorsing :)

 

Pete

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Pete,

 

If you can send in logbook evidence of aircrafts you have flown which are two stroke we will be able to look into endorsing you with 2s,

 

as for LP we no longer endorse as per the Operations Manual.

 

Thank You,

 

The Membership Team

 

Members Database Administrator

 

E: [email protected]

 

W: www.raa.asn.au

 

T: (02) 6280 4700

 

F: (02) 6280 4775

Thanks Pete,

I understand LP is not an endorsement, but the Ops manual does still talk about type training and does refer to the characteristics of the plane etc. my CFI told me it's not an endorsement but it MUST still be logged and signed off in your log book for different types you wish to fly...... Gee it's confusing

 

 

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