Flea_Nut Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Hi all, I used to belong to the RAA years ago and have a collection of vintage aircraft including 2 Flying Flea and 2 1931 Clancy Sky Babies. Built and rebuilt aircraft for other people as a LAME. Now retired and its time to get my own projects happening. Just ending the reconditioning of a 1924 Motorcycle engine converted to aircraft use. Will probably go into my 1934 HM14 Flying Flea for a taxying exhibit. It will fly but I need to lose a few Kilos Vive Le Pou James ( Flea_Nut ) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microman Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Hi James - I assume from your post that you are fully aware of the shortcomings of the original design and your Flea has been modified to avoid the tendency it had to enter an uncontrollable nosedive if you use more than 15 deg of nosedown attitude? I know they are still producing a modern version which is absolutely fine, but not sure what changes were made? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea_Nut Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 Yes I'm fully aware of the dive tendencies and the problems that caused them, also the solutions to those problems. The biggest problem of all has been the complete silence of the Flea fraternity in France and their refusal to discuss these problems and the solutions to them. A stable airfoil is the major issue. i.e the centre of pressure must not move when the angle of attack is changed. Richard Fraser in the Canada has been working on this problem for many years and has developed a stable airfoil. There is only one Flying Flea (HM293 ) on the register in Aus Made by Fred Byron. Its based at Watts Bridge. There are approx 10 other projects around Australia that have failed for lack of information. Also the death of 293 pilot in WA when the Flea tumbled in flight. No one was able to determine if the heart attack he had was a result of the tumble or the tumble was a result of the heart attack. This Flea had tumbled on the pilot previously. For the life of me I cant remember his name. Gordon Laubsh? loved mustering his cattle and flying along cold fronts. I think he was approx 80 when he died. Anyone remember any more details or knew Gordon? Vive Le Pou James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Welcome James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Hello James. I have a friend who has bombarded me with Flea literature for years. There is another person who I have met flying one currently at Penfield (Sunbury). It was built and first flown a couple of years ago, and is flown less regularly now. If you contact the flying school they may be able to give you contact details. What sort of 1924 M/C engine are you using? Scott made a two stroke specifically for it and Monsieur Mignet used M/C engines at the time. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea_Nut Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Where the hell is New Gisborne? never heard of it. My Mum was born in Gisborne NZ. A Museum in Canada was going into liquidation year before last and was selling /disposing of the whole collection. They had 3 1920's Henderson motorcycle engines that had been converted to aircraft use for sale. I was an idiot and only bought 1 even tho the aus to US was dollar for dollar. The import duty and costs were humungous. I should have bought all 3, the costs would have been the same. The engine is about to be mounted and I want to have it ready for an attempted startup at the Maitland Steamfest this year ( Easter ) I've taken one of the Clancy's before and run it up and then let the kids get into the cockpit and picked up the tail while another friend shook the wing wire bracing, to give the kids a sense of what it was like to fly. This became the biggest attraction of the Steamfeast with a queue of mums and kids. Didn't get a mealbreak that day, I should have complained!! I have Au$15000 invested in this engine at the moment, still have to do some minor engineering after its in the Flea. The engine was supposed to be in one of the Skybabies and will probably end up there as this was the engine nominated by the Clancy brothers when they built the aircraft at Mascot NSW in the 30's. Sidevalve engine at the moment but I have their drawings to manufacture a set of overhead valve heads in bronze. Probably soak up another $5 grand to do this. No other flying aircraft exists with this overhead engine James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea_Nut Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Nev, who was the friend whose been bombarding you with flea literature? James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Enjoy your flea - I always have enjoyed them over the years HM14, HM290, HM293, HM1000 All can be lovely and if you know what you're doing with the front wing controls (rods not wires) and have set up the CofG (wing load on front wing higher than rear wing) and do not have overlap on wings (slot effect negating the wing load) you will be fine. If you want to chat about flying them when you are up to that stage PM me Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 James I won't post it here. Ian Baker may give you my details. There's little this person doesn't know about them. (Pou de Ciel.) He always wanted me to build one. Henderson engines have to have the gearbox section cut from the crankcase, and the Henderson cases aren't that good . Later Indian four cases are made new with 5 bearing crank. That's standard on the Indian from about 1928 . It was based on the earlier Ace engine. New Gisborne is near Riddell's Creek. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea_Nut Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Yes Nev, The Henderson engine is only a 3 bearing crank, the Deluxe (1928) is a 5 bearing crank. As you say the gearbox is cut off. The only video of a Henderson engine running in an aircraft is a Penguin engine startup at Omaka in Marlborough. Oddly enough its the only one I've ever seen that runs as if the engine is in the bike ( prop not running from the flywheel end ) I will post the engine start on You Tube hopefully when we take The 14 to Steam Feast. I dont intend to fly it very far on this engine. Maybe hops, maybe a circuit at Cabulture. It had a Rotax 503 engine in it which is more power than it needs. I took it out to fit my Pteradactyl Ascender after I flipped the 14 over. engine teardown after a prop strike. I did fly my friends flea in NZ but the wing area was too low making very high take off and landing speeds. I really want a wing area that will fly me in the parachute decent mode with full power. All the data says that with the correct wing area and pilot weight, in no wind, the forward speed is 18 mph. Incredible. I didn't mention the fact that I am one of the founding members of The Australian Vintage Aviation Society ( TAVAS ) and all my collection on paper belongs to them. TAVAS is now based at Cabulture and specialise in WW1 airaft. Look them up on the net. You will be amazed at what has been achieved in the 3 years it has been operational. If you are into vintage aviation, this is the place to be. I would love to relocate there but the Mrs is not keen. Kasper, there were 2 Balerit imported for a tour of Aus quite some years ago and apparently one of them is still in Aus but I've been unable to trace it and it doesnt appear on the register. Do you know anything about it? Do you know Jim Jenz and where his fleas have gone? Vive Le Pou james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Hey James,Had a Pterror years ago. still have a brand new wing covering. In Vietnam for next few days. Could reminisce sometime. Regards Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Thanks James. I have seen modified barrells and the crankcase lower half was made like the JAP engine 2 cyl built under licence for mounting and holding more oil. I think someone made OHV heads in Australia. Have a shortcut to the TAVAS site thank you. I have studied the rotary engines extensively also. The same person lent me many original books. and one two days ago on the Sopwith Dove. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea_Nut Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Hey Don, I'd love a spare wing covering. I think we met years ago and you said you had broken your leg very badly in a Ptera crash and you still had this wing covering. This you? Been trying to trace you ever since to try and get this covering off you. Mines too bad to fly but I can get another from the States. Be great to catch up and get some pointers off you re flying the dac. Nev, yes the Henderson has an aftermarket sump to double the oil volume and the Clancy brothers did the after market heads themselves and called it the Clancy Henderson. Supposedly got a genuine 40hp out of it instead of 40 on paper. The engine I have has larger barrels and Riccardo heads which should give me a genuine 40 also. Its just that there is no genuine running Clancy Henderson Aircraft in Australia and this was a very important milestone in Australian Aviation as the aircraft was the first Australian designed and built fully aerobatic aircraft and test flown by Smithy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 A friend of mine had a Clancy Henderson in good condition. With the crankshaft it had it would be lucky to achieve 40 HP for very long. The cases aren't strong either. In the late 20's there were numerous competitions in the USA for motorcycle engined small aircraft..Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Yes Nev, The Henderson engine is only a 3 bearing crank, the Deluxe (1928) is a 5 bearing crank. As you say the gearbox is cut off. The only video of a Henderson engine running in an aircraft is a Penguin engine startup at Omaka in Marlborough. Oddly enough its the only one I've ever seen that runs as if the engine is in the bike ( prop not running from the flywheel end ) I will post the engine start on You Tube hopefully when we take The 14 to Steam Feast. I dont intend to fly it very far on this engine. Maybe hops, maybe a circuit at Cabulture. It had a Rotax 503 engine in it which is more power than it needs. I took it out to fit my Pteradactyl Ascender after I flipped the 14 over. engine teardown after a prop strike.I did fly my friends flea in NZ but the wing area was too low making very high take off and landing speeds. I really want a wing area that will fly me in the parachute decent mode with full power. All the data says that with the correct wing area and pilot weight, in no wind, the forward speed is 18 mph. Incredible. I didn't mention the fact that I am one of the founding members of The Australian Vintage Aviation Society ( TAVAS ) and all my collection on paper belongs to them. TAVAS is now based at Cabulture and specialise in WW1 airaft. Look them up on the net. You will be amazed at what has been achieved in the 3 years it has been operational. If you are into vintage aviation, this is the place to be. I would love to relocate there but the Mrs is not keen. Kasper, there were 2 Balerit imported for a tour of Aus quite some years ago and apparently one of them is still in Aus but I've been unable to trace it and it doesnt appear on the register. Do you know anything about it? Do you know Jim Jenz and where his fleas have gone? Vive Le Pou james LOL the infamous Rob Germon NZ flea by any chance? - he kept saying all the calcs showed the CL was sufficient (due to the "you beaut" section he had used from Mr Fraser) and ignored those of us who flew the HMs and knew that with the close coupled wings the total lift is ALWAYs less than you think ... even the HM290 had new outer panels for the rear wing to give it enough wing to fly properly and Robs wings are TINY! And Yep, I knew Jim Jenz. Lived not far from him back in the 1980's and loved his BMX wheeled original flea and corresponded with him over the years before starting to fly fleas myself. Afraid I do not know what happened to his aircraft. Similarly I knew and chatted to Gordon Laubsch over the years down at mangalore for the SAAA flyins and loved chatting about his flea ... and his quickie Q1. As for the HM1000 I know that 1 with a Subaru came in for a fly aorund OZ from France with the French club that visited Sydney UFC at The Oaks in the mid 90's but it broke down and ended up in a paddock and i am sure it went back to France in the container with the trikes and I know that at least 1 HM1000 went on the RAA register ... but I believe it came to a bit of mischief and is not currently flying. none of the HM1100's came to OZ but if they did I would love to get my bum back in them - built for tiny frenchmen (not my sixe and shape) BUT they are delightful to fly and the Jabiru or 912 up front make them very capable aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 There's nothing about them that would make them aerodynamically efficient and cross wind capable. Those deficiencies are inherent in the design. You can still enjoy them though, but I'm a purist after going through Canards and other odd designs including flapperons. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 There's nothing about them that would make them aerodynamically efficient and cross wind capable. Those deficiencies are inherent in the design. You can still enjoy them though, but I'm a purist after going through Canards and other odd designs including flapperons. Nev Efficient - well yes, they are a bit draggy and nothing you can do will make them perfect (but nothing is) though the HM1100 is not bad Cross wind capable - they can be made cross wind capable to an extend - the HN290/3 FB has selectable spoilers that allows offset of lift to drop a wing into cross wind - gave is a comfy 10knt cross wind capability and above that the landing roll is short enough to angle across runways. The HM1100 does have linked ailerons so has a reasonable xwind capability ... and a strong undercart to deal with the rest ;-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea_Nut Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 Hey, great response guys, yes it was Rob Germons Flea and boy is it a hot thing to fly. The new owners bought it with the intention of getting rob to build new outer wing panels but for what ever reason it never happened. A beautifully built flea but as you say nothing would convince Rob that Frasers aerofoil was all it was cracked up to be. Recent wing tunnel tests show that it is completely stable and does produce 5% more lift but because the aerofoil is cupped under the leading edge it is a bugger to cover. My 14 was built by Bob Cornwell at Luskintyre while he worked there restoring Tigermoths in about 1990. Bob says he flew it but I'm sure he didnt as there is just too much wrong with it to fly safely. It was test flown the length of Luskintyre airfield by an aerobatic pilot. Cant remember his name, has a Flying school at Maitland and crashed his Pitts doing low level loops. Anyway, it scared the pants off him with PIO and told Bob to put it back in his shed and forget it. I bought it out of interest in the hm14 and because it has wings designed by Jim Jenz I know that with the right adjustments it would fly. It too has only 5.4m front wing which is capable of flying me but again it would be too hot. After Steam Feast I plan to make a new centre section for each wing and extend them. The front to 6.4 and the rear to 5.6. According to my calcs this will fly a 90 kg pilot ( crash diet for me) within the RAA rules. The Flea was registration no 344 on the ultralight register but is very heavy. I plan to replace most of the steel tubing and sheet steel with 4130 and should be able to reduce the weight by 10KG and that includes new centre sections and making the wings foldable. They are one piece at the moment and very difficult to manage/assemble 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopdangler Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Welcome to the forums James my dad built a flea way back in the early sixties when we lived on a farm.. I was only a little bloke then lol, anyway to this day I can remember my dad doing his take off roll screaming down the paddock getting airborne and then promply crashing through the next fence... Totalled the flea but walked away with a few scatches and sprains.. He salvaged the engine out of it. Made another prop and put that into an airboat he built.. That's another story.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 PIO in a flea is entirely Pilot error - they fact that teh roll control is secondary effect of rudder AND has a delay AND the delay increases the more aggressively you put in rudder means that it is VERY easy to overreact to an upset and when instant control response fails you put in more control THEN the control effect kicks in ... and its too much ... and now you are rolling the wrong way and you fist in a heap of correction ... very soon you are overreactin to aPIO and your controls are perfectly out of phase with the roll and you can't understand what the heck is going on. Been there, done that. Taught students how to deal with it (and to expect it in the first place) and all's well. PIO roll is normal for the flea layout where roll control is a secondary effect of a rudder ... as is snakey flying at VERY high speed (if you get there) as the rear wing starts kicking in high lift and lower drag the directional stability reduces and the low tail volume starts showing up. Not a problem at lower/medium speed as the rear wing drag supplements the rudder for directional stability ... and on the 290FB it was only really evident over 60knts ... which is fast for a flea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 At least it teaches you what the rudder does. It's easy to get oscillations in things that have a high inertia about an axis. Eg Fuel and motors in long wings. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotax618 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I built an HM14 with HM293 wings 25years ago, I powered it with a Robin 440 with a homebuilt V belt reduction. I had a number of attempts to fly it but because of the lead/lag delay in yaw/roll, once off the ground I couldn't keep it on the centreline of the strip with PIO dutch roll phugoid roll/yaw. Some years later Fred Byron asked if he could play with the problem and replaced the all flying rudder with a smaller fin and rudder and cut a Cosandy? Flap into the rear wing and re-powered it with a Rotax503. The Flea was subsequently successfully flown and then sold to an American collector. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I built an HM14 with HM293 wings 25years ago, I powered it with a Robin 440 with a homebuilt V belt reduction.I had a number of attempts to fly it but because of the lead/lag delay in yaw/roll, once off the ground I couldn't keep it on the centreline of the strip with PIO dutch roll phugoid roll/yaw. Some years later Fred Byron asked if he could play with the problem and replaced the all flying rudder with a smaller fin and rudder and cut a Cosandy? Flap into the rear wing and re-powered it with a Rotax503. The Flea was subsequently successfully flown and then sold to an American collector.[ATTACH=full]40953[/ATTACH] Indeed it was - I flew it for Fred prior to it going to the US and it was quite nice to fly. The fixed fin/rudder combo gives them much nicer feel on the control column than the full flying rudder and it had a Rotax when i flew it at Evans Head so it had at least another change from the cossandy and fin/rudder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotax618 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I mentioned the change to a 503. I had sold the Robin engine and re-drive to Mark Fisher who was going to use it to power a Strognik? S2A Motor glider, Mark sold the incomplete motor glider to someone in WA, havn't heard if it was ever completed. It's a shame Fred's health failed not long after he sold our Flea, he had some great ideas on Flea design and development. I havn't heard from Fred for several years, and given his poor health I fear the worst. I lost interest in the Flea concept and have designed and built several 3 axis aircraft since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotax618 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Just a few more photos of the flea construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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