stevenpam Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 if that aircraft came under the 600kg MTOW rules and it had the chute fitted and if you had two guys pushing 100 kg you would only be taking 1hr fuel + reserves The 600kg MTOW Foxbat is available with a BRS, which adds 19kg. Not insignificant, but not unreasonable, either. That would still leave room for a good 60 litres unless the humans were on the large side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I asked the same question yesterday if an experienced aerobatic pilot and he told me flat spin recovery includes full into-spin aileron, get it to roll into a dive, then recover. Sounds a lot like hang glider spin recovery technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 The 600kg MTOW Foxbat is available with a BRS, which adds 19kg. Not insignificant, but not unreasonable, either. That would still leave room for a good 60 litres unless the humans were on the large side. Yes, but the Foxbat is 325 kg empty and the Brumby 600 is 350 kg empty. And I'm guessing the 350 is a conservative estimate. The previous add on this forum (as listed earlier) shows this aircraft as substantially heavier, at least in the configuration it was being sold in, at the time. http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/brumby-914-turbo.118166/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Dont you get extra mtow for brs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Regarding forward airspeed, there is some. It doesn't increase and the Rate of Descent is the biggest cause of injury/damage, on impact. It's usually in the order of 6,000 fpm or a bit less for this style of aircraft, equals about 100 kmph. Unless cushioned by undergrowth etc that's a pretty severe hit, usually resulting in severe injury or death. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 if you have a look at the add when the aircraft was for sale and after it was sold to the flying school you will note that the BRS handle can not be seen in the pictures on the school website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Maybe BRS and 914 removed to save weight and enable 2 up operations Illustrates the absurdity that removing safety gear to meet line in the sand weight limit or stall speed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 If some posters knew of DJP's background .... I must owe you a half decent bottle of red now. .... an Extra 300 is hardly your average LSA... This video is perhaps more relevant to the general discussion on spins (I know nought about the Brumby): Its quite long but you only need to watch the first few minutes to see the unrecoverable flat spin mode of this experimental airplane - tail #4 has the horizontal stab moved aft compared to the standard airplane (somewhere there is a video of its unrecoverable flat spin mode too). Another interesting spin at 16 mins but this time with a modified wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Dont you get extra mtow for brs? No credit given for BRS, you only get an extra 50kg for floats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 No credit given for BRS, you only get an extra 50kg for floats. And I havn't been able to find anyone in CASA to explain why the extra weight for floats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 And I havn't been able to find anyone in CASA to explain why the extra weight for floats. Ask them to give me a call - engineering consulting rates will apply. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I must owe you a half decent bottle of red now.This video is perhaps more relevant to the general discussion on spins (I know nought about the Brumby): Its quite long but you only need to watch the first few minutes to see the unrecoverable flat spin mode of this experimental airplane - tail #4 has the horizontal stab moved aft compared to the standard airplane (somewhere there is a video of its unrecoverable flat spin mode too). Another interesting spin at 16 mins but this time with a modified wing. Yep, taught me a lot. At about 9 mins in, Tail 4, you see it flatten from about maybe 30 degrees or more nose down to less than half that, at a guess. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Completely co-incidental: ( and I am in NO WAY suggesting that this accident was the result of pilot error in not knowing how to handle spins): the Darling Downs Soaring Club has set up a 'Spin Awareness Clinic for Power Pilots' scheme: http://www.ddsc.org.au/spin-clinics The brochure looks as if it's a pretty good programme. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scre80 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Completely co-incidental: ( and I am in NO WAY suggesting that this accident was the result of pilot error in not knowing how to handle spins): the Darling Downs Soaring Club has set up a 'Spin Awareness Clinic for Power Pilots' scheme:http://www.ddsc.org.au/spin-clinics The brochure looks as if it's a pretty good programme. Adelaide Soaring club is offering one too. The GFA is aiming to have at least 1 running in each state I hear. Having just been on the one at ASC, very much worth it. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamel Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 In my humble opinion , it is a must do! . In retrospect I am so glad my first flying was in gliders, apart from stall and spin training, EVERY landing is a forced landing, no go arounds if you muck up 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Yep, taught me a lot. At about 9 mins in, Tail 4, you see it flatten from about maybe 30 degrees or more nose down to less than half that, at a guess. Well, I watched that video again, carefully - and I am complete pants at estimating angles!. From the one I was talking about, I measured the 'developed' nose-down angle just prior to the spin 'chute deployment by reference to the stripe on the fuselage and the 'lines' in the cloud band when spinning fast, and the nose-down attitude is about 22 degrees. So, the initial spin nose-down attitude must have been around 55 - 60 degrees!. At around 20:05, the in-cockpit camera shows the horizon when in the developed flat spin, and it very much re-inforces the 'flat' aspect - worth a look. That whole video sequence is fairly amazing, and if nothing else, it shows just what real 'test pilots' do for a living.... and I guess they go home to their family at the end of the day and when the missus asks 'how was your day, dear?', they probably respond: 'oh, took a new plane out for a bit of a spin'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAFA Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Some comments earlier about the ATSB investigating, however nothing on their website indicates this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 why would they be looking at it? RAA would have to investigate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Disclaimer: I'm allowed to say this as it doesn't directly relate to the accident I was interviewed over. When I was interviewed by the ATSB regarding the loss of control and crash of a Pitts aircraft (same variant as mine) last year in the Hunter, we were shooting the breeze about ATSB investigations of experimental category aircraft accidents. In recent years the resource-starved ATSB has generally steered away from investigating many experimental or small aircraft accidents and left it to local authorities. This has been a formal policy of Management. I was told that this policy is changing in the interests of ongoing air safety and they are genuinely attempting allocate resources to formally investigate more GA/experimental aircraft accidents wherever possible. I don't know whether this extends to RAAus aircraft - maybe there is some confusion here and that's still beyond the resource capability of the ATSB (wouldn't surprise me). However it seems there are moves underway to formally investigate as many of these types of accidents as they can. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAFA Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 why would they be looking at it? RAA would have to investigate That's what I thought, but if you go back a few pages there are posts regarding the ATSB investigating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I would hope that they do investigate this accident and make the report public as this could help pilot safety 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Disclaimer: I'm allowed to say this as it doesn't directly relate to the accident I was interviewed over.When I was interviewed by the ATSB regarding the loss of control and crash of a Pitts aircraft (same variant as mine) last year in the Hunter, we were shooting the breeze about ATSB investigations of experimental category aircraft accidents. In recent years the resource-starved ATSB has generally steered away from investigating many experimental or small aircraft accidents and left it to local authorities. This has been a formal policy of Management. I was told that this policy is changing in the interests of ongoing air safety and they are genuinely attempting allocate resources to formally investigate more GA/experimental aircraft accidents wherever possible. I don't know whether this extends to RAAus aircraft - maybe there is some confusion here and that's still beyond the resource capability of the ATSB (wouldn't surprise me). However it seems there are moves underway to formally investigate as many of these types of accidents as they can. That's not surprising; those are almost exactly the words ATSB used recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 The "right" to investigate RAAus incidents rests with the police. That is the situation. They can call RAAus in but don't have to. Of course we would all benefit from a timely thorough investigation but seriously. It ain't gonna happen. The RAAus doesn't have the resources qualification wise (although that could be developed). Also this is a big country. It costs money to get staff to places around the continent. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Now that we don't get the magazine in the mail anymore i thought they would have plenty of Cash. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 No credit given for BRS, you only get an extra 50kg for floats. Actually that is not exactly true in all cases... For example, if your aircraft is certified at 600kg and it is registered at 544kg, you get weight credit for the chute over the 544 up to a maximum of 600. Case in point, my CTsw was able to be registered LSA as it was certified at 600kg however I chose not to register it LSA but chose to register it at the standard 544. However it did have a BRS at an extra 22kg so I was allowed a MTOW of 566kg. Disclaimer...after all the debacle with aircraft registrations recently it would pay to check with the RAAus if this is still current Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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