Aircraft down Lancefield Vic

[shafs64]

RAA put out an Email about the crash

 

 

[dan3111]

This is not to do with this aircraft crash put a general comment on Lsa aircraft . I do think a lot of factory aircraft are a lot Heavyier then they say they are . A lot don,t really meet the 45 knots stall less they are loosing 1000 FPM down to earth . The first of types may have but people want flash paint and glass panels all the bells etc and so adds up to 30 kg plus on tare weight . The faster the lsa the less wing area in most cases so the danger factor goes up and up when fan stops or loss of control . I have a friend that has a Rv 6 and from when he first flew it , with wooden prop and no bells was 50kts stall to custom adding stuff now stalls at 60 kts . So it all adds up so the only thing you should add to any aircraft is lightless . Some might shot me down on these comments . But the truth is when there is any wind on the grape vine that there might be a ramp check at a fly in there not a aircraft to be seen.

 

 

[dutchroll]

But the truth is when there is any wind on the grape vine that there might be a ramp check at a fly in there not a aircraft to be seen.

That's a bit sad. If you have maintained your aircraft to a high standard and you've been diligent in ensuring your aircraft and personal documentation is up to date, you shouldn't fear a ramp check. If you haven't done these things, well maybe some self-reflection is required.

 

 

[Teckair]

I don't think he was taking about himself.

 

 

[SDQDI]

That's a bit sad. If you have maintained your aircraft to a high standard and you've been diligent in ensuring your aircraft and personal documentation is up to date, you shouldn't fear a ramp check. If you haven't done these things, well maybe some self-reflection is required.

Dutch I don't think it is a worry about ones maintenance standards or worrying that ones certificate is out of date or worrying about being over MTOW, I think the most worrying thing is just how confusing it is to understand correctly all the regs and the exemptions and the worry that the inspector may interpret them differently.

You only have to read any thread here that mentions a certain reg to find countless interpretations, the whole system is quite confusing and personally while I am comfortable with my maintenance and know that my rego and pilot cert are up to date I do worry about the paperwork side of things. For example I get confusing messages about the need to carry a "maintenance release" . I don't carry one and don't plan to in the future, as I am the only one that flys my plane i don't see a need to. I do think it is required if flying for hire or reward but I am a humble 19 reg. I do however keep detailed maintenance records in my maintenance log (which I am sure is a requirement and which never goes in the plane obviously) which I think is sufficient but I wouldn't be confident going to a certain ramp check just because of the uncertainty that is there.

 

You may say "ask your instructor" but in my experience they are like this forum, each one has a different interpretation which doesn't inspire confidence.

 

Having said all that, from what I hear the inspectors are starting to use the ramp check as a way to help us learn more instead of going straight to punishment which IMO is a huge step forward. If I knew that I had a warning or two, with helpful advice, before punishment then I would be much happier going to a certain ramp check knowing that if I do stuff something up then I will be told and helped to fix whatever the shortcoming is without worrying about having to walk home!

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Don't get intimidated by a ramp check, download the ramp check guide from the CASA web site & show them nothing more than whats legally required.

 

 

[KRviator]

Don't get intimidated by a ramp check, download the ramp check guide from the CASA web site & show them nothing more than whats legally required.

The only problem with that is the ramp check guide from CAsA does not actually marry up with the majority of the legislation it references, and in some cases, goes way beyond what you are required to actually comply with, or show the FOI...

[Head in the clouds]

The only problem with that is the ramp check guide from CAsA does not actually marry up with the majority of the legislation it references, and in some cases, goes way beyond what you are required to actually comply with, or show the FOI...

The CASA ramp check guide I've seen looks quite relevant and understandable - copy/pasted below -

 

And there's a handy pdf you can print out as a check-list that you can access by clicking the link at the top of that page - or here, I'll also try and attach it below

 

...............................

 

I’m a Sport pilot and have been selected by a CASA inspector for a ramp check

 

What happens now?

 

I’m a Sport pilot and have been selected by a CASA inspector for a ramp check

 

The inspector will ask you for, or confirm, your pilot certificate and other relevant documentation

 

• You should carry your pilot certificate with you when you fly. However, some sport organisations may have different rules, so check your organisation’s operational manual or regulations. It is also suggested that you carry a copy of your log book page with last flight review.
   
   
  
• Current/valid RAAO membership
   
   
  
• Aeroplane operated in accordance with the privileges and limitations of your pilot’s certificate
   
   
  
• Correct endorsements for flight
   
   
  
• You must carry your current aviation medical certificate if applicable and you must be compliant with any restrictions or endorsements on your medical certificate or driver’s licence (e.g. the wearing of corrective lenses).
   
   
  

 

 

The inspector will then check your preparation for flight

 

Flight plan

 

• Have you maintained a navigation/fuel log?
   
   
  
• Have you made a careful study of forecast weather and applicable NOTAMs?
   
   
  
• ≥ 50nm from departure point ELT/PLB required for two-place aeroplane
   
   
  
• If carrying a passenger - passenger endorsement
   
   
  
• ≥ 25nm from departure point – cross country endorsement
   
   
  
• Are you carrying the appropriate, current charts and documents?
   
   
  
• Are they easily accessible?
   
   
  
• Are you carrying an EFB for your charts and documents? Back-ups considered?
   
   
  

 

 

Finally, the inspector will check your aircraft

 

The inspector will check:

 

• The aircraft’s registration is current
   
   
  
• Condition of the aircraft
   
   
  
• The daily inspection
   
   
  
• Pilot’s operating handbook (POH) or flight manual
   
   
  
• Emergency checklists
   
   
  
• Warning placard if applicable
   
   
  
• Copy of CofA if applicable
   
   
  
• Aircraft has a placarded maximum take-off weight in accordance with the flight manual
   
   
  
• Aircraft is operated within weight and balance limits
   
   
  
• Required emergency equipment on board is serviceable and accessible if applicable
   
   
  
• Personal locator beacon (PLB) has current registration with the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA)
   
   
  

 

 

Document references

 

• Operations manual
   
   
  
• CAO 95 series as applicable
   
   
  

 

 

Operations

 

• Responsibilities of the pilot in command before flight – CAR 233
   
   
  
• Planning of flight by the pilot in command – CAR 239
   
   
  
• Navigation logs – CAR 78
   
   
  
• Fuel requirements – CAR 234
   
   
  
• Weather and NOTAM – CAR 233 & AIP ENR 1-10 paragraph 1.
   
   
  
• EFBs – CAO 82.0, CAR 233 and CAAP 233-1(1)
   
   
  

 

 

Aircraft

 

• Checklists – CAR 232
   
   
  
• Emergency equipment – CAR 252A (two-place aeroplane only)
   
   
  

 

 

*Regulation details current as of December 2013

 

ramp-checks-sp.pdf

 

ramp-checks-sp.pdf

 

ramp-checks-sp.pdf

[KRviator]

Now cross reference those requirements with the relevant legislation - you will be surprised just what you are required to do...And it isn't what CAsA sez you must do!

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Now cross reference those requirements with the relevant legislation - you will be surprised just what you are required to do...And it isn't what CAsA sez you must do!

I don't quite understand where you're coming from ...

 

The ramp-check check-list tells you what to expect and the references provided at the bottom tell you what legislation requires you to do it. You may, or may not, have to comply with every part of the legislation, depending on the type of flight you're conducting on the day (category of aircraft, distance from departure point, weather etc) but I think it's perfectly obvious which parts of it are relevant and when. Note that the check list is for sport aviation in general and that might be different for VH reg sport planes/pilots, gliders, LSAs, 95.10 etc but hopefully the pilots of each different type have enough understanding of the airspace regulations to know which of it applies to them? If not isn't it time they took a refresher course at the next BFR?

 

Which part of it do you think isn't relevant or "not what CASA sez you must do"?

 

 

[Oscar]

CAR 239 could be a bit of a problem for glider pilots...... I vaguely remember Ingo Renner indicating ( though, I think not actually submitting a flight plan) his ETA when leaving Tocumwal in the Caproni A21 for Queensland, to attend the Australian Gliding Championships... and I think also, being pretty damn close to his ETA... and Ingo held the world's distance record for a while in that plane (970.4 kms, for a straight-line flight). Would have been interesting if there'd been a ramp check of his fuel reserves at the end.

 

OK, that's tongue-in-cheek - but I wonder how CASA deals with motor-gliders that are of the 'sustainer' engine class?

 

And then, there's this one:

 

As often happens with new aircraft designs, there were several operational accidents. One occurred during these test flights, when a U-2 suffered a flameout over Tennessee; the pilot calculated that he could reach New Mexico. Every air base in the continental United States had sealed orders on what to do if a U-2 landed. The commander of Kirtland Air Force Base near Albuquerque, New Mexico was told to open his orders, prepare for the arrival of an unusual aircraft making a deadstick landing, and get it inside a hangar as soon as possible. The U-2 successfully landed after having glided more than 300 miles, and its strange, glider-like appearance and the space-suited pilot startled the base commander and other witnesses.[

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...Finally, the inspector will check your aircraft

The inspector will check:

 

• The daily inspection
   
   
  
• Pilot’s operating handbook (POH) or flight manual...
   
   
  

Do we have to document every DI?

What if my aircraft never had a POH?

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Do we have to document every DI?What if my aircraft never had a POH?

Well I'm not completely up to speed on Recreational/sport aviation requirements as I've been commercial GA for so many years and just getting back into the sport side of it, so I'm probably not the best to answer this - BUT as far as documenting the daily inspection goes - earlier there was comment about 'should we have (or perhaps it was carry, can't remember) a maintenance release'? As yet I'm not sure what the requirements are for maintenance releases for privately owned 95.55 aircraft that aren't certificated or being operated for commercial gain (flying schools and renting out planes etc). That's not to say the rules about that are difficult or confusing, I just don't know because I don't need to know because I don't have a flying 95.55 yet ... but when I do, I will know ...

 

However, when I hire a plane on occasions to keep current, I rent it from a school and they keep a maintenance release and I check that it has been signed off for the DI, regardless that I always do my own comprehensive DI/preflight anyway. And - regardless of what it turns out the rules actually require, and regardless that it'll be private, not certificated and not for commercial use, when DooMaw is flying I'll be keeping a maintenance log and signing off the DI in that. It's amazing how useful a document like that can be in event of anything going wrong quite apart from the very process of signing off DIs and such being a very useful tool for establishing personal discipline about the maintenance and inspections which, in my mind and experience, are a critical part of flying more safely.

 

If a plane has never had a POH, I really don't know what the regulatory situation is, but some of the RAAus operational documentation requires reference to the POH in certain situations, and if there isn't a POH, how can the pilot comply with the requirement? I wouldn't have thought it'd be a very arduous task to write a POH, especially for an aircraft that someone knows well. In any case it might be a very helpful thing to have as an 'aide-memoire' particularly if one was under pressure perhaps? Not only that, but even if there is some reason whereby, under certain circumstances, a POH doesn't absolutely have to be provided (for example perhaps owner-built aircraft built prior to x years ago), I think some CASA inspectors at ramp checks might find it 'odd' that some people/planes are flying around without a simple book of basic operational instructions and limitations. If for no other reason than that - just to keep CASA happy - I'd write one up for DooMaw. And - since I'd be writing it, it'll be very short and succinct, and wouldn't limit anything that isn't actually dangerous. For instance it'll have brief details about things like how to mount external cameras anywhere I might like them ... that should stop a few pointing fingers in their tracks.

 

 

[jakej]

A LOT of sport aircraft do not need/have a POH & are not required to have one, I believe one of CASA's AC (Advisory Circular) made recommendations to have some sort of info/checklist.

 

As for - "just to keep CASA happy" why ? I'm certainly not going to 'roll over'

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

A LOT of sport aircraft do not need/have a POH & are not required to have one, I believe one of CASA's AC (Advisory Circular) made recommendations to have some sort of info/checklist.As for - "just to keep CASA happy" why ? I'm certainly not going to 'roll over'

Well if you're going to have 'some sort of info/checklist, presumably the info would be what you'd normally find in a POH, things like critical airspeeds, fuelling info, W&B, emergency checklist etc, so why not then call it a POH and have done with it?

 

OK, "just to keep CASA happy" was probably a poor choice of wording. What I should have said was "to show CASA and other interested parties that we are willing to be just as professional and responsible as other airspace users".

 

Belligerence for the sake of it doesn't help our image one iota. It's all very well sport pilots getting uppity about conforming to what everyone else is doing in the air but there are powerful factions that would have it that we're a bunch of cowboys with poor or limited knowledge of the regulations sharing the airspace with essential services and RPT, and who should either toe the line or be excluded altogether.

 

 

[M61A1]

Not difficult really....

 

CAR 139:

 

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 139

 

Documents to be carried in Australian aircraft

 

(1) Subject to subregulation (2), the pilot in command of an aircraft, when flying, must carry on the aircraft:

 

(a) its certificate of registration;

 

(b) its certificate of airworthiness;

 

© if Part 42 of CASR does not apply to the aircraft--unless CASA otherwise approves, its maintenance release and any other document approved for use as an alternative to the maintenance release for the purposes of a provision of these Regulations;

 

(d) unless CASA otherwise approves, the licences and medical certificates of the operating crew;

 

(e) the flight manual (if any) for the aircraft;

 

(f) any licence in force with respect to the radio equipment in the aircraft;

 

(g) if the aircraft is carrying passengers--a list of the names, places of embarkation and places of destination of the passengers;

 

(h) if the aircraft is carrying cargo--the bills of lading and manifests with respect to the cargo.

 

Penalty: 10 penalty units.

 

(2)An aircraft operating wholly within Australian territory is not required, when flying, to carry a document specified in paragraph (1)(a), (b), (f) or (g).

 

(3) An aircraft that is operated under an AOC need not carry its flight manual when flyingif it carries on boardan operations manual that:

 

(a) contains the information and instructions that are required, under the relevant airworthiness standards for the aircraft, to be included in the flight manual; and

 

(b) does not contain anything that conflicts with the information or instructions.

 

(4) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.

 

Note: Forstrict liability, see section 6.1 of theCriminal Code.

 

(5) It is a defence to a prosecution under subregulation (1) if the flight was authorised by:

 

(a) a permission to fly underregulation 317; or

 

(b) a special flight permit issued under regulation 21.197 of CASR.

 

Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matters in subregulation (5) (see subsection 13.3(3) of theCriminal Code).

 

 

[storchy neil]

for Christ sake don't poke casa in the ribs some off what has been written is bloody rubbish no wonder casa is setting up ramp checks

 

I have been ramp checked 3 times never had a problem you are your own worst enemy

 

carried by me

 

ersa

 

flight manual (first thing asked for on each occasion )

 

maps hard copy

 

pilot cert

 

maintenance release ( copy of )

 

weather report

 

spare radio hand held (personal saftey issue )

 

water bottle ((spare packet smokes ))

 

PLB

 

if your aircraft does not have flight manual or poh who registered it and how flight manual and POH is the property of said aircraft to be in said aircraft on all flights neil

 

 

[red750]

Pardon me chipping in here guys, with what may be a dumb question reflecting the years since I last flew, or the comment often made by my missus that I have alzheimer' s/senility, but what is the point of carrying these documents if the aircraft ends up like the one which is the subject of this thread, and they are destroyed in the fire? How is that going to assist the investigation? Or is it just another typical bureaucratic overkill requiring duplicate copies of everything - one copy on the aircraft and one at point of departure?

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

EFB fine, no backup or paper required for private ops, they don't need to see a spare & you are not required to show them, however airmanship & common sense comes into the equation, this day & age most people have two iPads.

 

 

[facthunter]

You are being too practical. The requirements are there to be policed. IF you didn't know that its 80 penalty points. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

Pardon me chipping in here guys, with what may be a dumb question reflecting the years since I last flew, or the comment often made by my missus that I have alzheimer' s/senility, but what is the point of carrying these documents if the aircraft ends up like the one which is the subject of this thread, and they are destroyed in the fire? How is that going to assist the investigation? Or is it just another typical bureaucratic overkill requiring duplicate copies of everything - one copy on the aircraft and one at point of departure?

The trick is to read the whole section....

(2) An aircraft operating wholly within Australian territory is not required, when flying, to carry a document specified in paragraph (1)(a), (b), (f) or (g).

 

Which leaves, a maintenance release (GA only), a POH (if your aircraft has one), and your licence (including relevant medical certs).

 

So.... a pilot cert and the aircraft's POH (if any), that's all for RAA. (also assuming you're not being paid to haul freight).

 

 

[red750]

I read that, but what about 1© and 1(d). If I take off from Moorabbin and fly around Wilson's Promontory, Latrobe Valley and back to Moorabbin, (navex 1 when I was training), how is carrying a maintenance release or medical certificate in the aircraft going to make things any safer? It's just to satisfy Big Brother.

 

 

[GAFA]

How about we get back on topic. If you want to have discussion about ramp checks/ required docs etc, start a new thread.

 

 

[M61A1]

I read that, but what about 1© and 1(d). If I take off from Moorabbin and fly around Wilson's Promontory, Latrobe Valley and back to Moorabbin, (navex 1 when I was training), how is carrying a maintenance release or medical certificate in the aircraft going to make things any safer? It's just to satisfy Big Brother.

Oh, "safer"?, I got no idea about that one. I can only guess that like unmarked cop cars and speed cameras, there aren't for safety, but catching people doing things that they said not to do. No other reason I guess.

 

 

[KRviator]

The CASA ramp check guide I've seen looks quite relevant and understandable - copy/pasted below -And there's a handy pdf you can print out as a check-list that you can access by clicking the link at the top of that page - or here, I'll also try and attach it below

 

...............................

 

I’m a Sport pilot and have been selected by a CASA inspector for a ramp check

 

What happens now?

 

I’m a Sport pilot and have been selected by a CASA inspector for a ramp check

 

The inspector will ask you for, or confirm, your pilot certificate and other relevant documentation

 

• You should carry your pilot certificate with you when you fly. However, some sport organisations may have different rules, so check your organisation’s operational manual or regulations. It is also suggested that you carry a copy of your log book page with last flight review.
   
   
  
• Current/valid RAAO membership
   
   
  
• Aeroplane operated in accordance with the privileges and limitations of your pilot’s certificate
   
   
  
• Correct endorsements for flight
   
   
  
• You must carry your current aviation medical certificate if applicable and you must be compliant with any restrictions or endorsements on your medical certificate or driver’s licence (e.g. the wearing of corrective lenses).
   
   
  

 

 

The inspector will then check your preparation for flight

 

Flight plan

 

• Have you maintained a navigation/fuel log?
   
   
  
• Have you made a careful study of forecast weather and applicable NOTAMs?
   
   
  
• ≥ 50nm from departure point ELT/PLB required for two-place aeroplane
   
   
  
• If carrying a passenger - passenger endorsement
   
   
  
• ≥ 25nm from departure point – cross country endorsement
   
   
  
• Are you carrying the appropriate, current charts and documents?
   
   
  
• Are they easily accessible?
   
   
  
• Are you carrying an EFB for your charts and documents? Back-ups considered?
   
   
  

 

 

Finally, the inspector will check your aircraft

 

The inspector will check:

 

• The aircraft’s registration is current
   
   
  
• Condition of the aircraft
   
   
  
• The daily inspection
   
   
  
• Pilot’s operating handbook (POH) or flight manual
   
   
  
• Emergency checklists
   
   
  
• Warning placard if applicable
   
   
  
• Copy of CofA if applicable
   
   
  
• Aircraft has a placarded maximum take-off weight in accordance with the flight manual
   
   
  
• Aircraft is operated within weight and balance limits
   
   
  
• Required emergency equipment on board is serviceable and accessible if applicable
   
   
  
• Personal locator beacon (PLB) has current registration with the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA)
   
   
  

 

 

Document references

 

• Operations manual
   
   
  
• CAO 95 series as applicable
   
   
  

 

 

Operations

 

• Responsibilities of the pilot in command before flight – CAR 233
   
   
  
• Planning of flight by the pilot in command – CAR 239
   
   
  
• Navigation logs – CAR 78
   
   
  
• Fuel requirements – CAR 234
   
   
  
• Weather and NOTAM – CAR 233 & AIP ENR 1-10 paragraph 1.
   
   
  
• EFBs – CAO 82.0, CAR 233 and CAAP 233-1(1)
   
   
  

 

 

Aircraft

 

• Checklists – CAR 232
   
   
  
• Emergency equipment – CAR 252A (two-place aeroplane only)
   
   
  

 

 

*Regulation details current as of December 2013

Okay, here's a few examples...First of, is the CAsA bloke an Inspector, or an Investigator - it will make a difference in what they are actually allowed to ask for (not that they will tell you that...).Have I maintained a Nav Log? No. Nor am I required to do so. CAR78 only requires I log enough data to ensure I don't get lost.

 

Have I maintained a fuel log? No. Nor am I required to do so. CAR234 only requires I have sufficient fuel for flight, nothing about keeping a log of it.

 

Do I have a backup for my EFB? No. Nor am I required to do so.

 

Can I see the last page of your logbook sir? The one that you're not required to carry - nor even actually produce for inspection for a week - but the one we say you "should" carry with you.

 

Being a GA pilot you would naturally be aware of the "CAsA requirement" to carry photo identification with you, whenever you are exercising the requirements of your flight crew licence? No? Well that's what they say - but so far as I can tell, there is no requirement, aviation or otherwise, that says an Australian citizen must carry photo ID.

 

It would seem their sport pilot one is a little better than their generic GA "ramp check guide" that is littered with incorrect references and "we say you should do this, but the CAR's say that" type statements, but they are still saying or suggesting you carry documents you are not legally required to do so, and for some FOI's, that's enough for them to say you're operating illegally, when in fact you're doing no such thing.