So what is the status of RAA flying schools today and how are the costs raising for dual training.

[SSCBD]

So what is the status of flying schools today and how much are the costs going up for dual training.

 

I saw the last post on this thread was - Student Costs for Dual Training RA-Aus Oct 8, 2013 last post.

 

So what has gone on since, are they flat out, and the costs (Dual training) seems to be prohibitive high for younger guys.

 

How much is a pilot cert from scratch these days?

 

Also do we know how many new members are joining the RAA per month, and how many pilot certs being issued p/m.

 

Should schools go back or look at having “Rag Wing Type Trainers” say drifters and I saw the new Bat Hawk – similar to the side by side old thruster to do the initial pilot cert to reduced costs to the public and also provide a clear price gap to GA. They also go back to the old hard core AUF days and were fun (low and slow) and easy to fly with a short list of checks.

 

I believe the Bat hawk is under $70k.

 

With these entry level aircraft “I assume” (yes I know don't assume ) that the costs could be compared to running around in the metal / carbon types unless some clubs get tooo greedy.

 

Is it possible to get a $120 (pure guess) dual and hour or less in these aircraft types to bring members in?

 

Any thoughts???

 

 

 

[Nick Sieczkowski]

I don't know about over time because I grew up in a family that owned planes so I never really had to hire one and then the military paid for the rest of my flying. But, by looking at the Recreational Flying Co.'s (Gympie QLD) prices it costs the same for their Drifter or their Foxbat ($150 private hire), which is slightly less than the Tecnam that I'm flying at the moment ($165), which is slightly less again than the PiperSport at the Sunshine Coast ($175). So I think the difference is fairly minimal between the traditional and modern types.

 

 

[SSCBD]

I don't know about over time because I grew up in a family that owned planes so I never really had to hire one and then the military paid for the rest of my flying. But, by looking at the Recreational Flying Co.'s (Gympie QLD) prices it costs the same for their Drifter or their Foxbat ($150 private hire), which is slightly less than the Tecnam that I'm flying at the moment ($165), which is slightly less again than the PiperSport at the Sunshine Coast ($175). So I think the difference is fairly minimal between the traditional and modern types.

Hi Nick -thanks, but what are the dual rates for students?

 

 

[Nightmare]

I just completed my Recreational Pilots Certificate in February this year (2016). I was paying $170 per hour Dual, flying Lightwing GR912's. I paid about $8000 all up over 10 months. I took a little longer as I changed flying schools after about 10 hours. I had to get my head around a different plane, airfield and instructor. I passed my RPC at 39 hours. The usual is around 30 hours I believe. Does this help?

 

 

[Sean_Smith11]

$255 Dual, Sunshine Coast.

 

 

[scre80]

J170 Dual Instruction is $137 and solo is $124 for club members, at Gawler, SA

 

 

[Fishla]

$180 dual. Sticker price was $5k for 30 hours over 1 year to get certificate. It was a bit less with a 0.1 hour discount here and there. Jabiru J120. Tasmania.

 

J170 Dual Instruction is $137 and solo is $124 for club members, at Gawler, SA

How much is club membership? The instructor only makes $13 / hour?

 

 

[Nico13]

I started recently at Lethbridge just out of Geelong in a Tecnam Eaglet, $230 dual and $170 hire.

 

I think their Pioneer Kite is the same cost. I get to use that for solo work later on.

 

 

[facthunter]

Pretty unrealistic. What about briefing before and after?Nev

 

 

[Spooks]

Wish it was that cheap in the UK.

 

Our equivalent of RAA is £150 dual (~$300) and £120 (~$240) solo.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Pretty unrealistic. What about briefing before and after?Nev

At my first flying school, who charged $250 per hour dual, briefings were part of the price. With my latest school, they charge a class room rate for exams, or any time the briefings were anything but basic. Very reasonable though.

 

Wish it was that cheap in the UK.Our equivalent of RAA is £150 dual (~$300) and £120 (~$240) solo.

Wow Spooks, you could go for a PPL here at those prices!

 

 

[scre80]

$180 dual. Sticker price was $5k for 30 hours over 1 year to get certificate. It was a bit less with a 0.1 hour discount here and there. Jabiru J120. Tasmania.

 

How much is club membership? The instructor only makes $13 / hour?

All instructors are volunteers to the club. Annual club membership is $457. It cost me around $4000 to obtain my pilots certificate and cross country / passenger endorsement.

We also have a theory instructor who donates his time.

 

 

[Fishla]

All instructors are volunteers to the club. Annual club membership is $457. It cost me around $4000 to obtain my pilots certificate and cross country / passenger endorsement.We also have a theory instructor who donates his time.

You lucky bugger!

 

 

[Spooks]

Wow Spooks, you could go for a PPL here at those prices!

I think it is a mix of expensive fuel (averages $2.30 per litre for NORMAL unleaded fuel), expensive insurance, expensive rental costs, high taxes...... it is mildly irritating, especially when the wages don't match the cost of living.

 

I sometimes wish I'd just completed my training in Oz/USA and converted the licence but I prefer to support the local airfield and it has helped me learn the local area.

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

$190 per hour dual in wollongong for a Jabiru, that includes on average an hour of briefing as well

 

 

[Stillhere]

You lucky bugger!

Lucky bugger be buggered, isn't that what clubs are all about, members volunteering their services and expertise for the mutual good of the club?? What member scre80 didn't elaborate on is that for those prices you can hire a Jabiru, J170, J230 or a FK9. Some of these aircraft are privately owned and are cross hired to the club. The Adelaide Soaring Club at Gawler is one hell of a club.

 

 

[ron dunn]

Boy- things have gone up over the years. When I had my flight school here on the Spencer Gulf in South Australia nine years ago we were charging ninety dollars dual and seventy five dollars instructional solo. This included pre briefing. Solo hire was sixty dollars. This was in the older LSA Jabiru and Lightwing 582 . Yep I know a lot of things have gone up but we were paying close to two dollars for Avgas toward the end and hangarage and office fees were close to two thousand a year. Insurance was not cheap those days either, with only one broker in the game. And I was paying fifteen dollars/hour for part time Instructors. If I remember correctly, a new Jabiru was under 50 grand and factory engine rebuilds were two thousand five hundred dollars.

 

 

[poteroo]

Lucky bugger be buggered, isn't that what clubs are all about, members volunteering their services and expertise for the mutual good of the club?? What member scre80 didn't elaborate on is that for those prices you can hire a Jabiru, J170, J230 or a FK9. Some of these aircraft are privately owned and are cross hired to the club. The Adelaide Soaring Club at Gawler is one hell of a club.

Agreed - clubs are the cheaper route. Being 'not-for-profit' allows a club to avoid quite a few costs, and is a real help when negotiating charges with local governments over landing fees and hangarage charges. But, lets also understand that the club needs to hold a flying school 'licence' or 'approval, plus have all the 'physicals' required by RAAus to be such. It can't be done out of a garden shed these days. The generous and philanthropic instructors need to pay for their own Class 2 medicals, plus their own BFR's, plus their own insurances. By my calculations, a nfp club should be able to offer its' members flying at least $40/hr cheaper than a privately owned school.

 

On the other hand, the mercenaries running a privately owned flying school are slugged full tote odds by everyone in the supply chain. Insurances, maintenance, landing fees, hangarage........ all the usual suspects take a chunk out of the income. My guess is that many privately owned flying schools are owned and operated at around a break-even figure. And, they do so because the owner is prepared to not seek anywhere near a commercial return-on-capital, and instructs pretty much for the love of it.

 

In my own case, I charge $220/hr, GST inclusive for dual, and $165/hr wet for solo hire. This gets you a brand new, very well equipped Brumby high wing, operated off a full security RPT served airport. There is no charge for landing fees, pre and post briefings, nor short lecture sessions. You pay your bill in arrears.......... (sometimes very much so, but.....). And as well, you get a reasonably well qualified instructor.

 

Club school v's private school is an apples v oranges argument.

 

happy days,

 

 

[MartincaF1]

I recently started flying lessons in a southern Adelaide flight school, in late 2008 model Evektor SportStar SL aircraft with some glass/some vacuum in the cockpit. Beautiful little aircraft for learning in, I'm told. The fees are $225ph dual, $180 solo (I'm not there just yet). The total time with instructor is usually a full 2 hours: 30-40 minutes review/briefing, a full hour flying, then debrief anything up to 30 minutes. In my opinion generous. I'm happy to pay that, even though I'd love to pay less if I could so I could fly more hours, get to my Certificate/Licences quicker. Thanks for all the info to all above.

 

 

[Aero28]

I'm so glad I learned in 2002/2003 at 75 dollars for a 40 to 45 min dual flight in a two stroke Light Wing and Thruster. Couldn't pay the prices they want now. So ultralighting came about in the 70's -80's so not so well to do people could take to the sky's in minimum aircraft because ga was to expensive,( to regulated). Seems like its nearly done the full circle and is again out of reach to average wage earners. Maybe in 10 or so years there will be a minimum aircraft movement start again to get these people , young and old into affordable ultralighting?

 

 

[Aero28]

I'm so glad I learned in 2002/2003 at 75 dollars for a 40 to 45 min dual flight in a two stroke Light Wing and Thruster. Couldn't pay the prices they want now. So ultralighting came about in the 70's -80's so not so well to do people could take to the sky's in minimum aircraft because ga was to expensive,( to regulated). Seems like its nearly done the full circle and is again out of reach to average wage earners. Maybe in 10 or so years there will be a minimum aircraft movement start again to get these people , young and old into affordable ultralighting?

 

 

[pgpete]

I learnt in a Tomohawk at parafield at $55 / hour..... in 1986. I couldnt afford to learn to fly now

 

 

[Nick Sieczkowski]

I learnt in a Tomohawk at parafield at $55 / hour..... in 1986. I couldnt afford to learn to fly now

The average weekly wage in 1986 was around $450 so that was about 12.2% of your wage per hour. At $220 per hour with todays average weekly wage ($1600) it is around 13.75%. I understand that that is what the average salary is and not what the average expendable income is, but it is still comparable.

 

 

[Chinchilla Aviator]

What's everyone's thoughts on paying $220/h Private hire for a 1000h+ j230? Bit steep hey!

 

Would $180/h sound closer to the going rate?

 

 

[ron dunn]

I think so, considering we were only charging 75 dollars/her 10 years ago when we had our school. OK - that was only an LSA 2.2 Jab but we had a lot of ongoing head repairs in those days and insurance cost the earth back then.