VFR into IMC

[motzartmerv]

Yes Nev. It was an overload of the pilot situation. She could easily hand fly the appch, but as if just to allign some swiss cheese perfectly, the AP went down right in the middle of an appch change and some agressive vectoring from ATC.

 

 

[facthunter]

Those at the pointy end, know. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The argument is actually one about education. We all agree that we don't want to see people die from going into IFR conditions unless they are trained and equipped. We also agree that some cloud conditions are really dangerous for our type of planes.

 

So how to stop those who would listen to us doing something stupid and dangerous?

 

Well one way is to tell them that any cloud incursion will be fatal. I disagree strongly with this, because it is obvious nonsense and you lose credibility as a teacher when you tell lies. What about a cloud which is not much bigger than your plane?

 

The truth is that not all clouds are the same, some are more dangerous than others. Now this does indeed complicate the message, but it is factual and a good teacher deals in facts.

 

The other thing a good teacher knows is that learning is an active process, not a passive one. You learn by doing and experiencing much better than by being told. So time "under the hood" is time well spent. As is glider time for those who would otherwise panic at real engine-out. Engendering fear with lies is what is dangerous here. Going into cloud or losing your engine are not necessarily fatal, things are more complicated than that.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is a point of view out there that warnings are just a conspiracy of elitists who are making IF out to be difficult when it's really simple. Like everybody knows where "down" is. THAT is the dangerous attitude I'm trying to get around. The" 178 seconds to live" is also an attempt to convey the message, and it's horribly like what happens to so many in real life. A completely black sky is much the same as being in "milk" effect of a cloud, except you don't need cabin lights. There is no "up" or "down" that is obvious to you. You get used to a steady turn so that when you pull out you feel as if you are doing a turn the opposite way, when in fact you are flying straight. False signals that disorient you from your middle ear and seat of the pants. Disaster if you don't learn to ignore them and just trust the instruments. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Now this does indeed complicate the message, but it is factual and a good teacher deals in facts.

The other thing a good teacher knows is that learning is an active process, not a passive one.

A good teacher encourages pilots to follow the rules. We dont break the rules to prove a point. Theres nothing complicated about it.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Mozartmerv, the rules are not always, in every culture the world has seen, appropriate to be followed without question or (sometimes) disobedience.

 

You too could cite plenty of examples to illustrate this point. Thankfully we live in a place where the rules are generally sane.

 

Anyway, cloud flying of gliders was within the rules in England and for all I know it still is. I've been there when it was legal.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Mozartmerv, is it really enough for you, in all circumstances, to just know what the rules are? And that settles any question you may have about any issue?

 

 

[DrZoos]

It is little like religious schools teaching students sex is a dirty, dangerous sin...

 

What counts is encouraging a very healthy respect for the serious and likely consequences of reckless action and encouragement of the enjoyment of responsible pleasure

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I have googled it up and yes, cloud-flying in gliders is still legal in england. Your glider needs to be sufficiently strong, as most are these days, and you need to be wearing a chute. There is no requirement for an IFR endorsement.

 

But for you guys who find this hard to believe, let me say that I think there is all the difference in the world between thermalling up into a fat cu on a nice summers day and flying a heavy twin into a big city airport at night with 1000ft overcast. I admire your nerve in doing that.

 

 

[aplund]

I'm a little bit late to this conversation, but there is an issue here that, as a student pilot, I'm not entirely sure I understand.

 

What has been said in this thread is apt for VFR in Class G and perhaps E airspace. But what about Class D and Class C in particular when busy? There needs to be some back and forth between you and the controller about what clearance would work out to maintain VMC whilst not causing some other conflict. If a clearance to descend or change track doesn't come in a timely way, then a loss of VMC, to me, seems very possible.

 

I cannot seem to dig out what rules apply in this situation. Is there a reference in the VFRG or AIP which clarifies this situation?

 

 

[facthunter]

You have to "organise" the least dangerous outcome, as PIC. Loss of VMC is a high order risk, so perhaps orbit clear of cloud and inform them straight away.

 

If you cruising in a jet and lose an engine you cannot maintain the assigned altitude . Similar concept. You turn off track and start descending to a SAFE cruise level. and tell them..Aviate Navigate Communicate. Nev

 

 

[scooter75]

This newb must admit, i've been Youtubing and watching vids on Flying since reading this thread.. i've watched guys use Instruments to fly between airports at low level clouds, abort take offs due to shifting winds and dubious departure routes, read ATSB reports and sadly listened to ATC audio of those unfortunate enough to find themselves in cloud..some endings ok, some not so... In summary, i now have alot more respect for weather well before i've arrived at this part of my training. Further, my urgency to just get up there and go seems to have waned.. i need to be more aware of the risks in the weather rather than just focusing on an airworthy aircraft.. a comment my instructor made "it looks like we've run out of reasons not to go flying", now makes sense.. .. Finally, and scarily, "I'm that guy.. " i hadn't really considered clouds a big threat.. i'd never paid that much attention to them other than seeing them as a ceiling to ops... meaning in two years time, i was probably the guy inbound from the west in big clean air, who thought he would just "pop" over the mountains and land in the Sydney basin, ending in yet another vector, ATC Audio file, or worse, and ATSB report.... Conversely, after spending time in a glider, i can understand the desire to chase every bloody cumulus in the area... and so i don't sit on any side of the fence with this thread.. but i appreciate every addition to it by pilots more experienced than i, that are handing on knowledge and experience from which i can make a more informed decision about my own behaviour in an aircraft.. Cheers once again for the contributions to Recreational Flying..

 

 

[facthunter]

Flying on instruments is OK if you are trained , current and the plane is equipped with the appropriate instruments and you are cleared to be flying there if near other IFR traffic. Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

trained and instruments appropriate plane says it all neil

 

 

[johnm]

what about - VFR has to be 1000 ft vertical from cloud

 

I have done some gliding and I'd find it difficult to believe that all gliders stay 1000 ft vertically away from cloud at ALL times

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Im not sure what we are discussing here? We all know the rules, and consequence for breaking them can result in your death. This is not new info, its not a new idea.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Isn't it clear of cloud only below 3000 agl? Nev

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Isn't it clear of cloud only below 3000 agl? Nev

Clear of cloud below 3000ft amsl or 1000ft agl which ever is the higher in class G. Providing you can see the ground and have a radio.

 

 

[DWF]

Isn't it clear of cloud only below 3000 agl? Nev

Not quite Nev.

 

 

It's at or below 3000ft AMSL or 1000ft above terrain (which ever is the higher).

 

 

 

 

 

Applicable levels: At or below (whichever is the higher of):

 

(a) 3000 ft AMSL; or

 

(b) 1000 ft AGL

 

Flight Visibility: 5000 m

 

Cloud: Clear of cloud and in sight of ground or water

 

Conditions: Radio must be carried and used on the appropriate frequency

 

 

 

Source: AIP ENR 1.2