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J230 - preformance. (Landing and taking off)


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Again: FLAME PROOF JACKET AT THE READY.

 

I've kinda mentioned this with my instructor and it is in no way meant to show any ill thoughts on what was said.

 

I am only wanting to LEARN.

 

The other week I did 42 minutes of circuits to "keep my hand in".

 

YWOL, me, J230, first stage flaps, runway 34.

 

Starting at THE southern end of 34, I am off the ground BEFORE the cross runway. Climing at about 800 FPM!

 

I am nearly at circuit height mid field! By runway end at worst. Well, I can stretch it out if I keep the nose down.

 

I did about 7 circuits. Some good, a couple of "multiple landings" (bounces) but nothing serious. The plane wasn't damaged and all is good........

 

But is it? (No, I don't mean I think it is dangerous, or anything like that.)

 

That's why I am here, now asking/thinking/talking.

 

Doing circuits is testing. Especially if you haven't flown in a while. Trim is not really kept "set" as for take offs it is "FULL FORWARD and back a crack".

 

Now, I accept that performance changes with every flight: Fuel, PAX, "cargo" and so on. So all you can do is practice with what you have at the time..... No prizes for guessing/know that.

 

I learnt to fly in a Gazelle. TOTALLY different plane. TOTALLY! The processes were also different in what I was told and why. I'm not going into that. It is a whole other can of worms - to me. Don't bring it up in replies, as I can't "process it" as applicable. Be it "true" or otherwise.

 

First off I have realised that I need to learn the landing curve of the Jab. But more so I need to get the landing "angle" (and I'll get back to that in a sec) right. *1

 

Although engine failure landings are needed and all that, the whole "landing a jab" is different to "landing a gazelle". How it was explained to me was that (and there is no offence to any plane meant here... Read it all first) A gazelle is a lower performance plane than a jab. So landing a gazelle is "easier" than a jab.

 

Why?

 

Well, taking it a bit to the the extreme: A gazelle is a brick and a jab is a sheet of ply wood (flat).

 

Where you start your descent in a gazelle: You are landing "in front" of where you are pointing.

 

A jab - how ever - you are landing........ "out there". Pointing forwards, somewhere. *2

 

So, when I am flying my circuits and hap-hardly getting the base/final altitudes all 'wrong', I need to first off set myself a "rate of descent" I want to use in the jab. Let's say 500 FPM.

 

I was told to "watch the angle between the lane and the runway" - which is a great idea: once you have said angle. I'll try to get back to that later too.

 

*1

 

So in keeping with my 500FPM approach to the runway - and gee isn't it GREAT we have GPS's! - I'm going to have to set a 500 FPM rate of descent and fly around (when low traffic) the southern end of the runway and find the point at which I am on the glide slope. (Ha! Yeah, good luck)

 

Then start an approach and mentally mark the place when I am 500 AGL. That is the point where I need to be when turning base to final.

 

Hopefully: From there on in, I can locate that place: know I should be at 500 AGL and know what the plane needs to be doing to "make the runway".

 

As you can surmise: This is going to take a few attempts to get right.

 

But I think it is the best way to get things established in my mind the positional awareness of the plane when landing.

 

*2

 

Performance!

 

So every flight is different! Yikes! What does that mean??!!

 

Well, if you are low houred, it can be frightening when you go off with a "loaded plane" and a mate on a weekend trip...... You are used to flying solo and empty. All the landing stuff you practice won't "work" now. Or will it?

 

Well, I can't say, but rest assured, it should help you.

 

Although the plane is heavier than usual, you have "established" the patterns in your mind of what things should look like when landing.

 

Try to concentrate on the runway, rather than surrounding things. As these change from place to place and therefore won't "work" at every airport.

 

But that's not to say you shouldn't!

 

By all means when you are doing circuits at your local airport, use these things. But then consciously turn and look at the runway. THIS IS WHAT I SHOULD SEE!

 

This way you establish the patterns.

 

You use the land marks to "check yourself" then you look at the runway and set that as what it should look like.

 

Doing this over and over will help imprint in your mind the picture of what you need to see to be "on the ball" for a good landing.

 

So, back to the "away trip with a loaded up plane and a mate".

 

Where does all that fit in?

 

Well, as the way of landing has slightly changed to how I was told/practised, you know where the runway should be as you are coming in to land.

 

If it is high: power. If it is low: well, pull back more on the throttle and/or more flaps. Of course: If you are too high: GO AROUND!

 

But you have the "looks" in your mind and they will help you check your height/distance to the runway.

 

So back to me and my circuits:

 

I've take off, cross wind, down wind. Passed the end of the runway. Power back and start to slow.

 

Turn base, start descent..... and so on.

 

Turn final.... Usually I am way too high.

 

But I haven't established the "correct" (desired) rate of descent and airspeed. See earlier.

 

Anyway: I get down near the runway. I'm coming in steep-ish and at about 60-70 kts.

 

Even the SLIGHTEST adjustment pulling back on the stick the plane goes from -400 FPM to +200 FPM .

 

Now, ok, I am saying "SLIGHTEST" when really I could be more articulate and more the stick less......

 

But that is where the practise comes in. That is another 7 minutes away!

 

I admit I need to fine tune that a bit more. People have mentioned the TRIM, but seriously: That is making a difficult situation more complicated. For the 7 minutes in the circuit, the "extra" pressure required on the stick is neither here or there.

 

I know that if it is a long flight I would set the trip and so the amount of pressure would be different. But that is PRESSURE and not the DISTANCE the stick needs to be moved. So I am at odds with that way of thinking.

 

I hope someone - somewhere - has found this "rant" helpful.

 

 

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Crikey, you need to do this sort of revision under the supervision of an instructor. In the training area to start with. Practise climbing and descending at the correct speeds and use the trim. Practise descending at 65kts and get it right before even thinking of going back to the circuit. Definetly seek the assistance of an instructor.

 

 

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I don't remember ever looking at the rate of descent. It is all about airspeed and attitude ( the planes, not yours!)

 

Get the airspeed set up earlier.

 

 

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RKW,

 

Indulge me: You fly a plane on your own then with ..... 400% extra load and try to ace the landings.

 

Or vice versa: Fly a plane and ace the landings then reduce the loading in the plane by 400% and try to repeat.

 

I'm picking 400% only as a nominal figure. Seems that shouldn't be a problem for you.

 

PCM,

 

Yes, but attitude translates to airspeed and rate of descent. All other things being equal.

 

I am trying to keep an airspeed of 50-60 kts. (Could be 60 -70.....)

 

I pull back on the stick and there is a MASSIVE change to VSI - as stated.

 

Getting the instructor in the plane completely changes the plane's dynamics.

 

COMPLETELY!

 

 

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I agree with RKM, you should find an experienced instructor and revise the effects of power and attitude and how to apply them to achieve a correct approach. Blackboard first then go flying with him.

 

 

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I guess the reason I have never looked at the vsi is that my eyes are too busy looking outside with a regular glance at the asi.RPM is adjusted by ear.

 

 

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You mostly fly an approach to a path angled to the runway touch down point. If it's power off it will be steeper if there's a headwind it will be steeper. If you are heavier you will fly faster and not steeper. You learn to judge what looks right, but irregular paddock boundaries make that harder as does a sloped landing area. Holding a constant pitch attitude is required to get a stable approach. Makes sure you are making the plane do what you want regardless of how it feels. Put the plane in the desired attitude and when desired speed is achieved remove the trim forces without changing the attitude. Don't fly responding to stick forces. Don't use trim to effect a pitch change. A Gazelle is the easiest plane to fly ever made. Plenty of people have problems coming off them. I'm only making general comments. Don't teach yourself.. Get an instructor who will drum into you the stable approach concept and the ability to see your position getting high or low on approach as it happens. Time for some hard basic revision and confidence building. Nev

 

 

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The following is my experience with my J230d and does not substitute support from your instructor. I climb out at 90knots and for me the nose cowl is on the horizon at that speed so apart from glancing at instruments for confirmation eyes are out of the cockpit. 500ft turn onto crosswind and then for me as 1000ft agl comes up I am turning downwind. This leaves me on downwind with a comfortable circuit size. If departing overhead I will keep climbing at 90 knots and if I am doing circuits I reduce power so I do not go over 90knots. At about halfway along the runway I will reduce power do my downwind checks at which stage I will be 80 knots and put in 1st stage of flaps which will drop me to 75. At a bit past 45 degrees off my shoulder from the end of the runway I will turn base and still have 75 knots aiming for 70 as I turn final. Coming out of the base turn I reduce power again usually about 1500rpm which will not change too much until on final. On final I aim to settle quickly and put in full flap which will give 65 knots. The key on final for me is maintaining the picture of the runway appearing stationary. It becomes obvious quick if I have mucked something up so depending on how long the strip is I will commence a go round early. A long runway gives some more time to settle if I am too high. As mentioned by facthunter, landing angle depends on an number of things and is often similar but can vary a fail bit. I agree with pmmcarthy that the vsi doesn't come into it. I aim to be at 60 knots over the fence. I find that any faster than this and I am too fast to get near the stall as the wheels are touching without bouncing. My aircraft loves to bounce if it is too fast. The trim on my aircraft is very effective on base and final and will help a lot when used as it is designed.

 

This describes my circuit and works for me (mostly!). I am an advocate for instruction and check flights from qualified people and we all benefit from this so as others will advise, get to an instructor. Take their advice. Read the pilot operating handbook which is available online. Some considerations are temperature, gusts, wind direction, weight, me being current, other traffic and fatigue and it takes experience to be able to judge these. I don't always get it right so as mentioned, am prepared to go-around, it is no big deal to do so. I use checklists, practice lounge chair flying and love flying my Jabby.

 

 

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I recently purchased the J230's older cousin, a Jab LSA 55. from YWOL, so I know the airport rather well now. The first thing I did was book an instructor for an hour from a local flying school familiar with that model of aircraft, for some instruction on the new plane, I previously learned on Lightwings and Tecnams. Money well spent in my opinion, I learned a lot about the LSA from that instructor.

 

I echo what others have said on here, I also wouldn't know what my rate of descent on final, my head is out of the window. If there is a gauge I watch it is my airspeed, as I, like many, believe a good landing is always preceded by a good and stabilized approach. For the LSA 55, it is 60-65kts for a normal approach with 1 stage flap, or 55kts with 2 stages of flap for a short field landing, with a small amount of power if necessary

 

I'd like to think I fly by the book. I pick the aiming point and watch if I'm over or undershooting, then power or side-slip as necessary to keep that aiming point in the same spot in the windscreen, down to the round out. But the priority here is to maintain that approach speed.

 

I think you can have an easy flight or a not so easy flight, and that is determined by your use of trim. I'd rather not be battling the controls when you don't have to.... just my 2 cents worth.

 

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From the ops manual

 

the pilot ensures their competency to operate the aeroplane type (refer to RAAP 1 – 2016 Type Transition Guidance) and holds all required Endorsements for the aeroplane and the intended flight (refer to Section 2.01 – Requirements).

 

Link to the document is here: https://members.raa.asn.au/storage/raap-1.pdf

 

Extract

 

Pilots should make use of all available resources to ensure they are well prepared before flying an unfamiliar aircraft as pilot in command. Recommended actions include:

 

• Read and understand the Pilots Operating Handbook for the aircraft;

 

• Seek advice and assistance from experienced instructors or other pilots experienced with the type;

 

• Ensure you understand how the aircraft differs from aircraft you have flown before;

 

• Ensure you know how to use all the knobs, buttons, levers, dials, etc. before take off;

 

• If necessary, have someone experienced with the type fly with you before you fly the aircraft as PIC.

 

I have flown 3 different types of aircraft, each new one I had a CFI train and then sign me off in my log book.

 

 

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Just to add another rough generalisation to the thread, I also don't use the vsi in the circuit area (unless I am on my bfr on downwind trying to nail circuit height within a foot or two!022_wink.gif.2137519eeebfc3acb3315da062b6b1c1.gif) and rely on the outside picture.

 

(I do use the vsi a lot when doing point to point flights though, using the good old iPad or gps I get my estimated time left and then get the height I want to drop for example 10 minutes to go and 4000 feet to drop to get to overflight height means I will sit the vsi on 400ft/minute loss and arrive right where I want to be to join or overfly. But have never used it to work out my base or final legs.)

 

You will find once you pull the power any parts of the runway (or paddocks for that matter!) that move up your windscreen are beyond your glide range and any parts that move down the windscreen are under your glide and the part of the ground that stays stationary is the bit where you will roughly hit (kiss). Of course you can do different things to change the result, side slip or turn or add power ect, but it really is a good way to get a picture of where you are heading early on.

 

 

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Prob completly wrong here , because i couldnt get through the whole post. But you dont fly by numbers . You look, feel and react. Sets of numbers to fly by migh work in big heavy birds , but ultralights are about getting your head out of the cockpit 95% of the time. The only thing you cant judge using your senses is airspeed , yep its nice to glance at the altimeter as well , but the vsi never in the cct ( it lies to you in any case)

 

 

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HI, as mentioned in earlier posts, you should be spending some time with an Instructor who will analise your flying and help you get it right.

 

If you want to, go to a different instructor for some revision. Some times a different style will make something more understandable.

 

I just checked my a recent logbook summery and found I have time on 29 dirrerent types of aircraft. Obviously they will all handle differently but the basics are the same.

 

It seems to me that you may be "overthinking" it.

 

This is how I do it.

 

As others have already said, in the circuit, my eyes are outside the cockpit. I use Airspeed and Altimiter to monitor my performance.

 

Remember the "basics". Attitude controls airspeed and Power controls rate of descent (or climb).

 

As I turn base I go for my approach speed, if I have the correct approach speed, during the approach I will get a good landing.

 

I monitor Altimiter while on base to help me find the appropriate power setting. I aim for the magic 500ft but but am not too concerned if I am high. I do not want to be low.

 

I was taught that after tuning final, to imagine the windscreen as a picture frame. Your intended landing point should not be moving up or down.

 

Use attitude to hold your approach speed and power to adjust your rate of descent. All I am looking at now is airspeed ( I actually check Altitude at around 300ft). Too slow is dangerous, too fast means a bounce or prolonged float.

 

My eyes are outside looking at the Picture 90% of the time with glances to Airspeed.

 

Trim makes it easier to hold the controls. I have only had 1 session of circuits in a Jab, so I am no expert here, but I found I did not have to play with the trim very much in the circuit. Your instructor is best here.

 

Some aircraft are difficult to land unless the trim is correctly set, I have only flown 3 RA types and none of them were trim critical.

 

Remember the basics. If the picture is still in your frame, you have it nailed. If it is moving down, you are overshooting. Reduce power and lower the nose to maintain the desired airspeed.

 

If it is moving up, you are undershooting. Add power and adjust attitude to maintain your desired airspeed.

 

Once I cross the fence my eyes are outside only working on the flair, crosswind adjustment and hold off.

 

Remember every landing is different. Different weight, different wind, and you may have traffic forcing you to fly wider or slower than you normally would.

 

I am no substitute for your instructor, but I hope my thoughts will help you get it!

 

 

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I'm not so sure about the picture in the windscreen frame aspect. IF the student is having trouble maintaining a fixed pitch attitude it might be a bad idea to rely on how the 'drome looks" in the frame. THAT wont' nail the approach angle. The "presentation" of the shape of the runway WILL. Ie IF it's getting shorter you are undershooting and if it's looking taller (longer) you are overshooting. IF you had some form of slope indicator (VASIS or glideslope) they would confirm your adherence to the required slope and were mandatory for RPT jet operations so serious is the need to stay on slope. Nev

 

 

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I'm not so sure about the picture in the windscreen frame aspect. IF the student is having trouble maintaining a fixed pitch attitude it might be a bad idea to rely on how the 'drome looks" in the frame. THAT wont' nail the approach angle. The "presentation" of the shape of the runway WILL. Ie IF it's getting shorter you are undershooting and if it's looking taller (longer) you are overshooting. IF you had some form of slope indicator (VASIS or glideslope) they would confirm your adherence to the required slope and were mandatory for RPT jet operations so serious is the need to stay on slope. Nev

The changing shape doesn't always work so well on grass strips, where the edges are a lot less distinct. Overthinking for sure - keep the IAS about right and the picture looking good, and 95% of the battle is won. I find putting an attitude marker on the windscreen with a whiteboard marker (poor man's HUD!) works brilliantly - point the marker at the aim point, hold the airspeed with throttle and elevator as appropriate, when the gunk goes under the glare shied, eyes to the end, power to idle (roughly), and try not to land :) Apologies to Mr Jacobson and Kruze ;)

 

 

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Yes but chasing the airspeed can be a real problem too, Hence my emphasis on maintaining a "desired" attitude being the basis of the stability of the approach. Not handling the trim aspect of it makes it more complex.. Trim only makes the "load" on the column less. A bad habit can be using the trim to control the plane's pitch. inadvertently. Pitch must be maintained regardless of control forces. Nev

 

 

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The changing shape doesn't always work so well on grass strips, where the edges are a lot less distinct. Overthinking for sure - keep the IAS about right and the picture looking good, and 95% of the battle is won. I find putting an attitude marker on the windscreen with a whiteboard marker (poor man's HUD!) works brilliantly - point the marker at the aim point, hold the airspeed with throttle and elevator as appropriate, when the gunk goes under the glare shied, eyes to the end, power to idle (roughly), and try not to land :) Apologies to Mr Jacobson and Kruze ;)

Absolutely spot on and quite a commonly used instructional technique. It's much easier to teach a student aimpoint aspect airspeed, where the power controls airspeed and the attitude controls the aspect. I don't know why so many people are hell bent on using the secondary effect of controls to fly the aircraft down final, all that you end up with is a constantly wandering attitude. Bleve's technique works in every aircraft from ultralight in day VFR to a 747 shooting the ILS.

 

Prob completly wrong here , because i couldnt get through the whole post. But you dont fly by numbers . You look, feel and react. Sets of numbers to fly by migh work in big heavy birds , but ultralights are about getting your head out of the cockpit 95% of the time. The only thing you cant judge using your senses is airspeed , yep its nice to glance at the altimeter as well , but the vsi never in the cct ( it lies to you in any case)

The first four words of the post were dead accurate. Students need numbers to anchor themselves on, and can't just fly off gut instinct.

 

 

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Nothing beats understanding what is affecting your situation. eg How much excess power you have . What is your density altitude How is the aircraft's configuration affecting your turn radiusEtc. . The system you train by should be OK for the whole of your flying career. Energy management is a crucial part of flying. Power doesn't control airspeed when the engine has failed. Nev

 

 

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That may well be that power doesn't control airspeed in a glide, but luckily for the most part our aircraft have engines when we are on approach so we can use power to control our airspeed, which is kind of its primary effect.....

 

Try using attitude to control airspeed in a higher performance aircraft like a baron and see how effective the technique is, and if you somehow pull it off your passengers aren't going to be feeling to great from all those rapid attitude changes, a small pitch change to you can easily be several metres to a passenger in the last seating rows.

 

 

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