facthunter Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 The sort of thing a school has to present has to look like a "real" aeroplane. What you and I like wouldn't sell. How many people in RAAus "build" their planes? That saves over 1/3rd of the cost . Glass panel, autopilot etc..Carbon fibre, C/s, retracts. 145 knots. You pay more. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 The sort of thing a school has to present has to look like a "real" aeroplane. What you and I like wouldn't sell. How many people in RAAus "build" their planes. That saves over 1/3rd of the cost . Glass panel, autopilot etc..Carbon fibre, C/s, retracts. 145 knots. Nev Then they have to detune and learn to fly something they can actually afford without the bells and whistles.....its all appearances seemingly. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red750 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Talking low cost aircraft, I won't post a free ad here, but this is a teaser from an ad I looked up using Google. Used aircraft dealer is in Melbourne. May not set the world on fire, but not that expensive.Had some low cost C152's as well, but they were pretty high time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 I don't determine the wants and expectations of the masses. Just offering the facts as I see them. Some people call it progress and see it as inevitable. I'm not one of them but I don't see how it wont have it's adherents. Not everyone is as successful as Franco Arri at getting the people up in the air in a Drifter, and U/L's will always have weak nosewheels. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Why do so many schools use J 170s? The answer is pretty obvious I reckon. They look & fly like any real GA Aeroplane, they are cost effective, very robust, Australian designed & built, & reliable if maintained they way they should be. a great cross country aircraft as well with 135 litre fuel capacity at 16-19 litres/hour. Also they don't cost anywhere near 140k. Try 92K. I did my conversion in one. Why some people think they are hard to fly is beyond me. The one I flew is getting a new engine at present. The original is still running fine but it has done over 1000 hours. A new engine is cheaper than an overhaul. $200 an hour makes the school good money. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 J120 even less Demonstrator with lots of fruit and new engine for sale now for $59K inc GST As a first up trainer pretty hard to beat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 $90K, $60K, old banger for $30K .. Yeah, right, how many of you have those amounts sitting around? You've convinced yourselves due to relativity that those are great prices, they are not, and many of you are delusional. Why do so many schools use J 170s? . There would be some patriotism of course, but most likely the confidence that spares and backup are to hand rather than the hassles of dealing overseas. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Not to mention that the Jabiru is much cheaper to buy.... I sure agree about spares. I needed some bolts for a Lancair. $6 for the bolts and $50 for the freight. I much prefer dealing with Bundaberg. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 $90K, $60K, old banger for $30K .. Yeah, right, how many of you have those amounts sitting around? anyone who has sold a half decent house in sydney in the last few decades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian00798 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 anyone who has sold a half decent house in sydney in the last few decades Anybody that has sold a half decent house in Sydney could probably spring for something even more fun like a PC12 or TBM850 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Anybody that has sold a half decent house in Sydney Well there's an answer to my question, the people who can afford them is always answered to be someone else, no one ever posts "$60K, phhttt, that's my emergency cash I keep under the bed Mate". By the way, the people who sell houses usually have to buy another, status quo. My Brother has a run down old fibro cement house on a small block in Merrylands Sydney, worth close to a $1 million, but where does he go then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Your brother should move to Edenhope, Western Victoria. Wonderful geriatric services, and the council actually tried to give away two building blocks. You could come back too Bex, but I couldn't protect you from CASA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Your brother should move to Edenhope, . He might not like the 12 hour drive to work. You could come back too Bex, but I couldn't protect you from CASA. It's on the cards, might be as soon as next year. I need to be close to my Daughters in Brissy and have been looking at Yamba every trip back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 If I was to learn again I'd take a two week holiday somewhere out in the sticks that has a good plane with cheap rates. If the person is going to continue flying after that then have some lessons in the area where you want to hire and fly that is probably subject to quite a lot of traffic I imagine in some circumstances. Depends on what you call the sticks Brett. A few schools have tried the 'outbush' approach - and all have folded up, (Wyalkatchem, Narrogin,Northamx2,Beverley). Students just don't want to sleep under a wing, or in the back of a hangar anymore, and usually the local motel has gone broke too in these places. Where you live has a big RAAus/GA school with modern aircraft, but this comes at a price. So too do the Geraldton motels because they, like ours, are run for tourism. Also, you have the problems of lots of RPT and CHTR traffic. Both ourselves and the Esperance school have tried to run part-time schools outbush, eg, Ravensthorpe, Katanning, Wagin), but it has never broken even. That's why we grit our teeth and payup for landing fees, and exorbitant hangar block leases, so that we have a 'presence' where there is a sizeable population. In our case, a city of 34,000 only just provides enough students to keep both schools afloat. Like Geraldton, we could offer flying rates so low as to be laughable - but because we are so far from Perth, it wouldn't attract a single extra student. In any case, we are cheaper than Jandakot, but not enough to get people to drive 400kms! I won't say the 'problem' of higher priced training is insoluble, but it's not going to be overcome in the short term. A better A$/Euro exchange rate might help. Cheaper insurance would be great - but our market is just too small for most companies to bother. happy days, 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 The RE industry in QLD relies heavily on 'sydney investors' who can buy 2-3 houses when they sell up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClintonB Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 I think I used to pay $90hr back in the 1990's for lessons in a Thruster, wages were around $220 before tax. Our local school Sportstar has been $240hr dual, and $140hr wet hire with user pays landing fees. Compared to owning an aircraft this comes up good. My own "cheap" purchased aircraft has been laid up 3 years being made sound enough to hop back in and use. Finally nearly there but a lot of time and money has been put in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExJourno Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 500 hours on that airframe generates $155k, you can still sell the aircraft for 2/3 of what you paid for it. thats easy money Let's assume 500hrs is a year... Office/hangar lease $40k to $80k Insurance (not the plane.... professional indemnity, liability and general business policy)... $2500? Phones/Net... $2400 wouldn't be unreasonable. Admin/accountant $2200 plus Xero at another 900 Marketing.... $20,000 would be easy to spend. Pay yourself (or a CFI) modest wage... say $64000. Plus.... electricity... general office expenses... non aviation equipment like printers, a computer... radio... oh, and loan interest plus capital payments. Doesn't leave a huge amount for actually running the plane for those 500 hours. Damn... I forgot to pay the CFI super and allow for holidays and sick leave. Can't imagine why anyone would be interested in buying a $150000 plane and "profiting" by starting a school. Training should be more like $400 an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Those figures look worse if you're renting at $200 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Yep, and sheep should be worth about $400 each. A loaf of bread should be $10. Hopefully, we will see these prices one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 The thing is that everyone's considering flying being a level playing field with other pastimes. However the vast majority of people these days (and 'these days' are the relevant words) don't consider that recreational flying is one of the more popular or desirable pastimes. Once it was considered romantic, adventurous or even pioneering, but now there are so many things that are thought to be just as exciting and much safer. Not only that but most people fly, as a matter of course, to holidays and even to work. So flying for fun has changed and is now so costly to meet the required safety requirements that only the wealthy can afford it. And there's the irony - people, particularly retirees, are wealthier than ever and can easily afford the horrible (in my mind) planes and costs on offer now but the new retirees aren't seeking them out for their retirement hobby. It's purely a lack of suitable engagement with and promotion to the best market in my mind. Flying school business owners have never really understood their marketing, in my experience. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 This is a very interesting, and telling, thread. It appears that the cost of flying RA is rapidly moving up into the GA single engine market level. And that poses two potential issues: 1. It might be asked by government: Why are we letting this group get away with exemptions from GA regulations? What is the point? 2. The Rag and Tube and local flyers are being rapidly marginalised without the ability to correct the situation through an Association structure. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 This is a very interesting, and telling, thread.It appears that the cost of flying RA is rapidly moving up into the GA single engine market level. And that poses two potential issues: 1. It might be asked by government: Why are we letting this group get away with exemptions from GA regulations? What is the point? . Or you could ask "why does anyone who flys privately need all these regulations that are aimed at commercial operators?" No other private vehicle operator has to put up with such draconian and unnecessary regulation. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Or you could ask "why does anyone who flys privately need all these regulations that are aimed at commercial operators?"No other private vehicle operator has to put up with such draconian and unnecessary regulation. RA regulations, plus the ones that RA pilots have to comply with to use GA airspace are not aimed at commercial operators. The problem is some people just want to ignore regulations which were developed in blood, and they potter along getting as little as 5 - 10 hours a year under their belt, and slowly losing the skills they were taught. They don't want any regulations; they just want to be able to drag out their aircraft, often poorly maintained and do something exciting like flying in and out of the trees. The trail of destruction and the image they leave just drags the industry down. We would be better off without them. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Turbs, there are many more people who want to take out their superbly maintained plane on nice safe weather days and fly at a safe altitude just enjoying themselves. And if it keeps them active, the total health benefits outweigh the risk by about 4 times. Taking the worst example of piloting and using it to make regulations for everybody is nasty, but just what is happening. I reckon everybody should get a fair go without it being assumed that they will go and crash into a kindergarten if let alone for an hour or two. How many of us have crashed into kindergartens anyway? Maybe that's only a theoretical risk. Come have a fly with me ( as long as you are not overweight ) and see. I bet we don't crash into a kindergarten. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 RA regulations, plus the ones that RA pilots have to comply with to use GA airspace are not aimed at commercial operators.The problem is some people just want to ignore regulations which were developed in blood, and they potter along getting as little as 5 - 10 hours a year under their belt, and slowly losing the skills they were taught. They don't want any regulations; they just want to be able to drag out their aircraft, often poorly maintained and do something exciting like flying in and out of the trees. The trail of destruction and the image they leave just drags the industry down. We would be better off without them. Let me guess....you would also like to see tighter regulation and more training for all private car, motorcycle, boat, and jetski operators, as well forcing them to have qualified maintainers for any maintenance and their mandatory annual inspection and biennial review, otherwise you would be a hypocrite. A lot of your precious regulations are not developed in blood, they were developed to ensure bureaucrats stay employed. The USA, for example, has very effective, but far less aviation regulation than we do. Face it, we all operate vehicles on a daily basis with far less regulation than is forced on private aircraft operations. Understandably, regulation is required for those running a business, but it is a significant and unnecessary impingement of freedom for private use. And as for your example, realistically, if Joe Bloggs wants to fly his poorly maintained Cessna through the trees in the middle of Bumblef*ck, who cares? It's not your problem, nor anyone else's except his. It only becomes a problem if he involves the public. You might happily throw a paddock basher commodore around in the sticks, but only a fool would do the same in town. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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