The real RA Aus to PPL conversion deal

[ian00798]

An RA senior instructor doesn’t take that much time to get, they only need to hold an instructor rating and then do 75 hours of instruction. A GA instructor with similar privileges would be grade 2, and that requires at least 200 hours of instruction. Frankly for your first 100 hours instructing your learning at least as much as the student is, possibly more. Even after that there is a lot to learn.

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Might I drop in my 2c at .this juncture. ..having had a total of 6 CFI's now between RA and GA (some once only for reasons partially explained below) I can attest that as well as flying experience there is an, often innate, ability to teach or share your knowledge in a practical and efficient manner.

 

I've had varying degrees of instruction and methods applied to me, some of it simply frustrating and useless. Suffice to say that being an experienced pilot does not necessarily meke you a useful or helpful instructor, regardless of RA or GA.

 

Let me pass just one example....In a ground school discussion we (current instructor and me) asked head CFI what mnemonic he uses for top of descent and top of climb, "I don't have one, I just do it" he responded with a shrug of his shoulders. Which then explained why he was unable to pass to his student (me) in a consistent, ordered and methodic manner the things I should be doing at these points in flight. This just one example of why some people might be skilled in a craft but aren't necessarily good teachers.

 

Fly Safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

[facthunter]

Flying by numbers is not real flying. Fly to the situation you are in. Too many fixed lists and not enough situational awareness. Complex planes need more managing for the systems but they all fly the same. Mr Newtons Physics. Nev

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Why focus on a list? Completely missed the point of the post without full consideration to the topic. I presume you fly with greater situational awareness than you read. ;-)

 

A description on why some people struggle to teach, cause they can't articulate what it is they do themselves.

 

Flying by numbers is not real flying. Fly to the situation you are in. Too many fixed lists and not enough situational awareness. Complex planes need more managing for the systems but they all fly the same. Mr Newtons Physics. Nev

Ramjet

 

 

[facthunter]

I would not have said " I just do it." That would not be helpful to any student. I've NEVER heard of a list at TOC or commencing descent. There are actions commensurate with what will happen to your plane when you level out or lower the nose to descend.. That is a change of situation requiring adjustments. All to do with (sometimes) a clearance, then attitude, speed and power setting, and then trim. You brief those things making sure it's all understood before doing the actual flying

 

Mnemonic's . You have to remember the mnemonic and then work out what it means.

 

I believe in flying by knowing what the plane is doing and why it's doing it. first and last and always. A checklist is to CHECK vital actions are DONE not as a prompt. It's a follow up Not used to instigate an action..

 

You are the one who focussed on a list. I'm definitely questioning it's relevance. I'm not insulting YOU, just questioning what you have said and quite prepared to discuss it as I would with my students . I'm BIG on adequate briefing(s).. Nev.

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

I see youre still focused on the list thing...but I get your somewhat defensive points.

 

I was trying to steer the discussion towards teaching and methods.

 

I was given FMCDQAR,, which I don't use but only remember it because that CFI instructed me so well, it's stuck in my head. One of the other VERY helpful instructions I got from that CFI was flying is the constant 'pursuit of perfection' - try to nail everything you do perfectly. Every time. Great advice.

 

Cheers

 

Ramjet

 

 

[ben87r]

A flow and a checklist negates the ‘need’ for a Mnemonic. Back in training we had a CAMOFDBUMFLUFF type of thing. If something needed to be done outside of that we had no SA to recognise it. Would highly advocate for not using one now.

 

 

[spacesailor]

I was given FMCDQAR,,: ?

 

Please enlarge, as I don't Know it & it could be useful.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[frank marriott]

When flying a simple RAA type aircraft there is simply not that much to forget really.

 

Generally (with a couple of exceptions)

 

Fixed undercarriage

 

Fixed pitch

 

One fuel system

 

No primer

 

No cowl flaps

 

No mixture control

 

No instrument checks (as in IFR) only T&Ps & fuel quantity

 

Just enjoy the simplicity without over complicating things, at the same time you will achieve a better lookout.

 

Relax and enjoy the experience.

 

 

[spacesailor]

And! NO battery or electrics to fuse out, in the most annoying way.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

I was given FMCDQAR,,: ?Please enlarge, as I don't Know it & it could be useful.

spacesailor

Happy New Year...

Fuel

 

Mixture

 

Cowls

 

DI Alignment

 

QNH

 

Altitude

 

Radio

 

Taught to me by a CPL rated instructor. It stuck, but as others have pointed I just do the 'flow' across the panel, levers, and then to my flight plan, which often prompts me to do something I have forgotten (usually radio and/or local QNH- ATIS always reminds me.)

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

[giantkingsquid]

My experience: Though I should clarify that I'm only at RPL now, but working towards PPL as time allows.

 

I carried out my ab initio training at an RAA school in SEQ, predominately in J170 but also J160 as well a little bit. I passed my RPC flight test at 24 hours and promptly did nothing for three months due to an interstate move and new job.

 

I went to the local school which used to be do RAA and GA, but now only does GA, "RA planes are no cheaper to run anymore so there's no point." I was expected to get the run around a bit, but after a few hours of flying around doing manoeuvres and circuits my instructor was happy with my flying. And I must say after the Jabs the PA28 that I am now flying is super comfortable, stable and all round pleasant.

 

We sat down and formulated a plan to work towards RPL, and he insisted on doing the two hours of instrument time, which I'm still not convinced is strictly necessary for a non-nav endorsed RPL, but anyway, I really enjoyed it actually :) We also did some fairly "severe" upset recovery, certainly way more upset than anything I'd done in RAA. Especially when under the hood... Recovering from an inverted stall half a dozen times when you can't see anything is a sure way to get air sick that's for sure! But again I'd say it is worthwhile and certainly not a waste of time or money. Hopefully I never get myself in such situation but if I do, somewhere in the old noggin is a method to get out of it...

 

A few more circuits at a very congested, high stress Class G aerodrome with three RPTs and four water bombers operating into at the same time and voila flight review signed off and I'm good to go: 5.7 hours, 2 of which was instrument flying. This may seem excessive for some, considering that RPC and RPL are meant to be equivalent, but I feel it was all very worthwhile, pushed me further into stressful situations and made me a better pilot. Time and money well spent. Now onto Navs and PPL.

 

 

[rdarby]

Inverted stall while under the hood?

 

 

[frank marriott]

Inverted stall while under the hood?

In PA28?

[giantkingsquid]

Inverted stall while under the hood?

Maybe my terminology is incorrect, but AH 9/10 of the way upside down and way nose up, airspeed very low.The point of the exercise was not about my “sick maneuvers”, but about just how quick you can get into a perilous situation on instruments without noticing that it is developing and furthermore how quick you must act to correct the situation. It’s worthwhile training for all pilots in my opinion and one step along the journey from RPC to PPL as per the title of this thread.

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

My experience: Though I should clarify that I'm only at RPL now, but working towards PPL as time allows.I carried out my ab initio training at an RAA school in SEQ, predominately in J170 but also J160 as well a little bit. I passed my RPC flight test at 24 hours and promptly did nothing for three months due to an interstate move and new job.

I went to the local school which used to be do RAA and GA, but now only does GA, "RA planes are no cheaper to run anymore so there's no point." I was expected to get the run around a bit, but after a few hours of flying around doing manoeuvres and circuits my instructor was happy with my flying. And I must say after the Jabs the PA28 that I am now flying is super comfortable, stable and all round pleasant.

 

We sat down and formulated a plan to work towards RPL, and he insisted on doing the two hours of instrument time, which I'm still not convinced is strictly necessary for a non-nav endorsed RPL, but anyway, I really enjoyed it actually :) We also did some fairly "severe" upset recovery, certainly way more upset than anything I'd done in RAA. Especially when under the hood... Recovering from an inverted stall half a dozen times when you can't see anything is a sure way to get air sick that's for sure! But again I'd say it is worthwhile and certainly not a waste of time or money. Hopefully I never get myself in such situation but if I do, somewhere in the old noggin is a method to get out of it...

 

A few more circuits at a very congested, high stress Class G aerodrome with three RPTs and four water bombers operating into at the same time and voila flight review signed off and I'm good to go: 5.7 hours, 2 of which was instrument flying. This may seem excessive for some, considering that RPC and RPL are meant to be equivalent, but I feel it was all very worthwhile, pushed me further into stressful situations and made me a better pilot. Time and money well spent. Now onto Navs and PPL.

That's an account more in line with what I was first expecting. With nav in hand I estimated up to 20hrs. Now I am well over 30, probably closer to 40, and every time I fly one tiny mistake seems to compound into a few under often unhelpful pressure/ harrasment from the instructor and then......I'm apparently not even close to ready for my PPL test anymore. "Let's do another nav" he says. There goes another $900.....This has been dragging on since the end of September.....6 months after my first instructor was about to book me into a test, then they left the flight school.

 

Your experience seems much more realistic (putting aside the very unusual attitude training!) and practical. I havent even completed my 2hrs IFR practice, despite asking numerous times.

 

My experience leads me to believe I'm being milked, though its been a slow realisation. I'll post more on that later when I find some time.

 

Where the hell do you get to do that 'aerobatic training' as part of your GA experience? (PM me)

 

Cheers

 

R

 

 

[rdarby]

It took me about 3 hours for RPL, then about 3 trips to controlled airspace and I think 3 navs. Was easily 20 hours but I benefited from it, I was slacker in my skills than I realised.

 

 

[alf jessup]

That's an account more in line with what I was first expecting. With nav in hand I estimated up to 20hrs. Now I am well over 30, probably closer to 40, and every time I fly one tiny mistake seems to compound into a few under often unhelpful pressure/ harrasment from the instructor and then......I'm apparently not even close to ready for my PPL test anymore. "Let's do another nav" he says. There goes another $900.....This has been dragging on since the end of September.....6 months after my first instructor was about to book me into a test, then they left the flight school.Your experience seems much more realistic (putting aside the very unusual attitude training!) and practical. I havent even completed my 2hrs IFR practice, despite asking numerous times.

 

My experience leads me to believe I'm being milked, though its been a slow realisation. I'll post more on that later when I find some time.

 

Where the hell do you get to do that 'aerobatic training' as part of your GA experience? (PM me)

 

Cheers

 

R

Sounds like milked or raped.Caught between a rock and a hard place

 

Do you keep getting milked or go to another school and see if they start you over again basically from scratch

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Sounds like milked or raped.Caught between a rock and a hard placeDo you keep getting milked or go to another school and see if they start you over again basically from scratch

Am I being milked?

I'm the guy who's always filling up the plane before (and often after) every flight. At 10 to 15 mins engine time = $50-$80. Seems it's never ready just to fly.

 

My landings are never quite good enough. Ever. Not once. Not even in 15kt gusty crosswinds, surprise, surprise.

 

My PFL procedure isn't 100% by the checklist, every, single, time. I was taught to aviate, navigate, communicate. So if working through fuel checks, getting enough exact info to Melbourne Cntre and briefing pax on exit, epirb and first aid isn't quite done perfectly, bad luck. I'm landing the plane, that's my priority.

 

My CTA and radio work is fine, I make an odd approach error to unfamiliar G class airfield (being used for circuits at the time admittedly) and that warrants another 3-4hr nav?

 

I make one navigational error (admittedly a bad one) and that warrants us going 5hrs West into the desert so I can "learn to read a WAC better" ?

 

My 500fpm descent to 1500AGL was mistimed by 1 minute, so that warrants yet more navs?

 

So when said instructor spots navigational error he says "do CLEAROFFS" then as working through CLEAROFF interjects with 17 questions " Height! Read your map! What time did you depart? What about that river down there?! What's your heading? How much fuel do you have?" Ummm...I'm still working through my CLEAROFF thanks, so you're not helping. I.e. Loads up the pressure, designed to fail so he can sit back at the end of the flight and say " You're not ready" He tries it on every time I make even a minor flight error. Maybe he doesn't even realise...??

 

I might be hyper critical and I know I'm not the tidiest pilot on occasion, but I can point it, land it, control it pretty darn accurate 99% of the time.

 

I think instructor just wants to see me through a 100% absolutely perfect nav and PPL skills just once. Though I am well aware that test instructors will often let you come back for another attempt later in the PM or next day to finish off some missed skills. Indeed, I think like golf, it's how you recover from the rough that demonstrates the skill.

 

There is also the implication of lack of frequency, the more I fly and don't quite get there, the less I want to fly....so I've been reducing my flying time to the bare minimum which does expose weaknesses in skills and competence.

 

How about when he says let's just go over the basics next flight (PFL, PSL, Circuit approaches) then on my arrival decides a short nav is in order, then post brief complains to me that we lost time (ie flying income) planning for the unplanned nav! What the...?

 

So my strategy is to:

 

a) sit down and demand completion of tasks that will see me ready and lock in a series of dates with those specific outcomes defined, like finishing the mandatory instrument flying.

 

b) Next time he starts carrying on mid flight simply say "I am in command, please be quiet for a moment, I will seek your input if and when I need it"

 

After 44hrs ( yes count 'me. .. 44! Longer than it took to get ALL my RA certs) , having come in with an expectation of a syllabus something like 'go over the basics +conversion to heavier type + CTA practice = PPL Test time, am I being milked? I think a bit of each, my instructor has very high standards and isn't here to 'just get me through' unlike the other instructor who had no acommitment to the bottom line of the business, just good flying outcomes. So perhaps the behaviour serves a slightly hidden income continuation agenda. Maybe that's a good thing? An EXPENSIVE good thing.....? I don't know, but being always '1 more nav' away from a flight test gets bloody frustrating.

 

Cheers

 

Ramjet

 

 

[alf jessup]

Am I being milked?I'm the guy who's always filling up the plane before (and often after) every flight. At 10 to 15 mins engine time = $50-$80. Seems it's never ready just to fly.My landings are never quite good enough. Ever. Not once. Not even in 15kt gusty crosswinds, surprise, surprise.

 

My PFL procedure isn't 100% by the checklist, every, single, time. I was taught to aviate, navigate, communicate. So if working through fuel checks, getting enough exact info to Melbourne Cntre and briefing pax on exit, epirb and first aid isn't quite done perfectly, bad luck. I'm landing the plane, that's my priority.

 

My CTA and radio work is fine, I make an odd approach error to unfamiliar G class airfield (being used for circuits at the time admittedly) and that warrants another 3-4hr nav?

 

I make one navigational error (admittedly a bad one) and that warrants us going 5hrs West into the desert so I can "learn to read a WAC better" ?

 

My 500fpm descent to 1500AGL was mistimed by 1 minute, so that warrants yet more navs?

 

So when said instructor spots navigational error he says "do CLEAROFFS" then as working through CLEAROFF interjects with 17 questions " Height! Read your map! What time did you depart? What about that river down there?! What's your heading? How much fuel do you have?" Ummm...I'm still working through my CLEAROFF thanks, so you're not helping. I.e. Loads up the pressure, designed to fail so he can sit back at the end of the flight and say " You're not ready" He tries it on every time I make even a minor flight error. Maybe he doesn't even realise...??

 

I might be hyper critical and I know I'm not the tidiest pilot on occasion, but I can point it, land it, control it pretty darn accurate 99% of the time.

 

I think instructor just wants to see me through a 100% absolutely perfect nav and PPL skills just once. Though I am well aware that test instructors will often let you come back for another attempt later in the PM or next day to finish off some missed skills. Indeed, I think like golf, it's how you recover from the rough that demonstrates the skill.

 

There is also the implication of lack of frequency, the more I fly and don't quite get there, the less I want to fly....so I've been reducing my flying time to the bare minimum which does expose weaknesses in skills and competence.

 

How about when he says let's just go over the basics next flight (PFL, PSL, Circuit approaches) then on my arrival decides a short nav is in order, then post brief complains to me that we lost time (ie flying income) planning for the unplanned nav! What the...?

 

So my strategy is to:

 

a) sit down and demand completion of tasks that will see me ready and lock in a series of dates with those specific outcomes defined, like finishing the mandatory instrument flying.

 

b) Next time he starts carrying on mid flight simply say "I am in command, please be quiet for a moment, I will seek your input if and when I need it"

 

After 44hrs ( yes count 'me. .. 44! Longer than it took to get ALL my RA certs) , having come in with an expectation of a syllabus something like 'go over the basics +conversion to heavier type + CTA practice = PPL Test time, am I being milked? I think a bit of each, my instructor has very high standards and isn't here to 'just get me through' unlike the other instructor who had no acommitment to the bottom line of the business, just good flying outcomes. So perhaps the behaviour serves a slightly hidden income continuation agenda. Maybe that's a good thing? An EXPENSIVE good thing.....? I don't know, but being always '1 more nav' away from a flight test gets bloody frustrating.

 

Cheers

 

Ramjet

Yep sounds like it Ramjet

[SDQDI]

My strategy would be

 

1: find a new instructor/school

 

 

[SSCBD]

Lodge A complaint and your logbook and name of CFI and your normal instructor with CASA. NOW! Also, Request a review of the flying school from CASA NOW!

 

 

[PapaFox]

I agree, there's some schools/instructors out there that need to be given a very wide berth. I had already done my RPL conversion a couple of years ago. That all went fine, and since then, have done quite a bit of XC in the 172. As I was coming up for my AFR, I thought now would be a good time for CSU+RG, so I went to a school at Albury for this. After multiple trips there and being told "next session will knock it over", I just had to walk. A few examples, like sitting in the plane, expecting to ask ground for airways clearance for circuit bashing, only to be told by the instructor to ask for a departure to a nearby class-G airfield, that I hadn't ever been to before, hadn't looked up in the ERSA, didn't have maps or GPS. That's some good demonstration of flight planning right there. Same instructor being paranoid about rudder use near the stall as it "will put us in a spin", and being repeatedly told to make my "mandatory" base call at the non-controlled airfield. There were enough other red flags that I just had to walk away and chalk it up as a bad experience. He did also detail why he wishes that RAAus did not ever exist, and that everyone needs real GA training.

 

 

[Hongie]

Rogerramjet, I know you are in the ACT, but if you are ever up in QLD, go see Neil Hoffensetz at Ayr Flying Services. He has a good reputation up here with some very highly qualified (atpl types), and there is no pretentions to him, no <mod censored>, if you are good to go, you are good to go type of attitude. Doesnt milk you for all you are worth, and actively speaks about not doing so.

 

 

[Camel]

I am /was HGFA, AUF now RAA and PPL , I see the differerences and the reasons for their existence ! Those who have been flying a long time and can't see it need to have a better look ! But in saying all that I believe all aircraft should have VH Australian rego ! All aircraft under say 1000 kilos should be able to be owner maintained if they have the competency to do so or within a limit of their competency ! Anyone not competetent, or boggie should not ! Or attend a training program that can get them to standard required, I have owned a GA plane which some of the LAMEs that worked on it were very BOGGIE and I found very defective work and on discussion with CASA, found they were not interested as the LAMEs were protected by CASA ! Which I found disgraceful ! After this annual I walked towards the plane spotting defects at ten meters away ! This was the roughest place in existence, lazy, dirty, boggie, rough and expensive let alone things not done and parts incorrectly fitted ! It was in 2008 ! Hopefully out of business now ! But being protected by CASA seem to get away with it !

 

I'm a motor mechanic by trade and a L2 and will NEVER allow anyone else to work on my aircraft as it's my life and seen to many rough and sloppy LAMEs ! I have also seen some excellent LAMEs too ! In fact some are so meticulous it is very rewarding when you find them !

 

As far as training goes I think RAA in its current form is good and if you want more get RPL, PPL, medical etc !

 

RAA exists to make flying affordable, GA flying is expensive ! But if you keep adding on to RAA it will get expensive !

 

The current status is that an RPL is equivalent to a RAA pilot certificate so why can't a RAA instructor issue a RPL without Nav endorsements ! The system is a little weird but I would rather keep RAA than be under CASA as I find that CASA do not care at all and can't be bothered ! Basically a waste of time and money WOFTAM for those who understand !

 

When I went PPL from AUF I did 18 hours, circuits, navs, control at Class D and class C, instrument two plus hours on navs and unusual recovery ! All done to a high standard that improved my skills !

 

When you share the air with others it's nice to know they know how to communicate and avoid conflict !

 

Some GA schools don't like RAA and rubbish it and you need to go to a school that does both or one that has seen and experienced both sides ! Some Aero Clubs rubbish RAA and call them toy planes and this usually comes from pilots with below average skills and big egos and fly very little ! Most RAA pilot fly from the seat of their pants and this is the greatest flying skill you can ever get !

 

So to summarise a little !

 

RAA CFI issue a RPC

 

RPC is equivilant to RPL

 

A PPL can do specific training endorsements that he is skilled at !

 

A GA school needs an AOC but new rules changed a little, I'm not fully aware !

 

RPC to RPL is a nightmare if you go to wrong school !

 

RAA is frowned upon by some GA schools !

 

RAA is the way to start a flying hobby or career !

 

So why can't an RAA CFI with a PPL issue a RPL ? Say without Nav endorsement !