HonkyNerdPilot Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 So next month I am returning to Melbourne to do nav and then get my PPL for further training. Do you guys recommend buying the Private VFR plan for OzRunways this stage or should I leave it until sometime later? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve L Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I wasn't aware you could use OzRunways for any PPL nav. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonkyNerdPilot Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 I wasn't aware you could use OzRunways for any PPL nav. Neither was I until I saw a video of someone going on first solo nav with what seems like OzRunways running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben87r Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 When you say for further training you mean onward to CPL? If so save yourself some money and buy yourself a pencil and a few charts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarf007 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 OzRunways is a handy tool to have and worth getting even if you are not going to use it in flight, AOPA Pilots Touring Guide is great add-on. For my RAA XC endorcement I printed relevant ERSA information and airport diagrams from OzRunways and it was fun comparing my paper flight plans to the electronic one. OzRunways is also integrated with NAIPS, so no clumsy online interface Electronic flight bags are amazing and have changed flying for the better. Also a great safety feature is that if you leave a flight note with someone, you can send them a link that allows them to track you in real time on-line (as long as you have got 3g coverage). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnewbery Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Trust but verify... In terms of training the student and instructor need to agree on what the training outcome needs to be. Are you learning to navigate, learning to use OzR or learning to pass the exam? Also if someone posts a video and you don't know the context of what you see, ask! In terms of learning to navigate accurately, OzR and any other track recording device are excellent feedback for both the student and instructor. My RAA training included submitting planned vs actual track and altitude after the solo navex. It is not an official part of any syllabus but we agreed to try it out to see what it was like. Most importantly there was no BS about what happened on the flight. But like instrument flight, one peek is worth a thousand map-to-ground references. You really do need to be honest. When using the whiz-wheel, doing the whole thing on paper then plugging the log into OzR will help with understanding threat and error management at the planning stage. This works great for simulators too. It is totally fine to create a flight plan for a PPL training or exam flight because it is a valid resource. As is using ERSA from your phone or tablet in the air or in the ground. When doing a solo navex with OzR turned on and transmitting traffic, the instructor can see from their OzR where you are if they want to and you want to. If in doubt talk to your instructor and examiner about the flight you area about to do and what does/doesn't qualify as valid training or exam. Note though under the current part 61 PPL exam, the examiner will U/S your tablet for navigation usually just before lost procedures are commenced. It's ok to ask if the U/S has ended on the way home. By then it won't matter. Finally, paper maps don't require batteries and work in the worst weather. A proficient pilot is proficient at using all the tools and performance available. Keeping a whizz wheel and a map next to the tablet is a personal choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 So next month I am returning to Melbourne to do nav and then get my PPL for further training. Do you guys recommend buying the Private VFR plan for OzRunways this stage or should I leave it until sometime later? Thanks I will say "yes", get yourself OzRunways. Extra tools to get you to your destination do not go astray. Hence get tuition from OxRunways tutors. I say get it now and practise with it as there are a lot of special features that can not be found anywhere.. (Learn to use and understand them). One of the features I have in mind is Windytv, practise with that. The other good information there are tutorials/videos out regarding how to use the system. KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I forgot to mention - have the latest IPad as OzRunways is engineered to work with the IPad, by having the latest IPad the IPad will be able to cope longer with the OzRunway upgrades. Other tablets will have short comings and not operate as well, sorry android people. Buy direct from OzRunways this way you will avoid the commission paid to the app store.. KP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 So next month I am returning to Melbourne to do nav and then get my PPL for further training. Do you guys recommend buying the Private VFR plan for OzRunways this stage or should I leave it until sometime later? Thanks PPL training must be done per the school's Ops Manual; CASA requires commercial ops to include use of EFBs in their Ops Manual - if not included then not approved at your school (I am not aware of any schools at Moorabbin which have EFBs approved for PPL students) and you would need paper stuff - I suggest that you ask your instructor.I also suggest a read of the CAAP on EFBs. Note also that approval of EFBs is for provision of maps etc only, not their GPS function so maintain that distinction always in your mind. PS: I recommend AvPlan. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love to fly Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I'll second the AvPlan recommendation. The new GAF implementation looks great. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 The tracking and location feature, is so special. You can have your friends track your journey, just give them your access. You have a map record of your previous trips. The other point schools can check on your navigation exercises. Regards, KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian00798 Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 When you say for further training you mean onward to CPL? If so save yourself some money and buy yourself a pencil and a few charts. I definitely support the idea of not using ozrunways until after getting your CPL, although I have to be honest I don’t think it will save any money with the cost of charts, ERSA etc these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 I definitely support the idea of not using ozrunways until after getting your CPL, although I have to be honest I don’t think it will save any money with the cost of charts, ERSA etc these days Look at it this way the year is 2017 and nearly gone, things happen differently now to yesteryear. Yes hard maps must be taught and understood. Also how to use these electronic flying tools, if the subject if not taught the instructors would be derelict in their duty of teaching. The way society is going. The student also has to be taught how the electronic navigation fits into the flying because bad faults will creep in if the student self learns. Who is to teach the subject of electronic navigation? KP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 PPL training must be done per the school's Ops Manual; CASA requires commercial ops to include use of EFBs in their Ops Manual - if not included then not approved at your school (I am not aware of any schools at Moorabbin which have EFBs approved for PPL students) and you would need paper stuff - I suggest that you ask your instructor.I also suggest a read of the CAAP on EFBs. Note also that approval of EFBs is for provision of maps etc only, not their GPS function so maintain that distinction always in your mind. PS: I recommend AvPlan. Schools have to move with the times and include electronic navigation in their Ops. Manual. Remember it is 2018. A lot of the commercial fellows have moved to the glass cockpit, they are moving on so must the schools. KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RobT Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 My cockpit is paperless. There is zero reason to learn hard maps. Doing my flight plan I get out my Azimuth Plotter and my abacus and map and NOT. There is no point teaching hard maps when the students will not be using them the when they finish. They are in the course and someone makes money teaching outdated stuff, my guess. Do they still teach how to use radio beacons? Paperless is here now just need to be able to put the maintenance release and flight manual into an app and we can do away with that to happy days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben87r Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Without EFB approval you would be up for tree based charts anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian00798 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 My cockpit is paperless. There is zero reason to learn hard maps. Doing my flight plan I get out my Azimuth Plotter and my abacus and map and NOT.There is no point teaching hard maps when the students will not be using them the when they finish. They are in the course and someone makes money teaching outdated stuff, my guess. Do they still teach how to use radio beacons? Paperless is here now just need to be able to put the maintenance release and flight manual into an app and we can do away with that to happy days. I have to disagree on this, the reason we teach basic DR nav is because it forces the student to understand the basic concepts behind navigation, not just following the purple line. GNSS is fantastic, however it is not flawless and it would be a very bad idea to rely solely on that for navigation. And for the record, yes we do still teach radio beacons because they are a fantastic tool for navigation. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RobT Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 I have to disagree on this, the reason we teach basic DR nav is because it forces the student to understand the basic concepts behind navigation, not just following the purple line. GNSS is fantastic, however it is not flawless and it would be a very bad idea to rely solely on that for navigation.And for the record, yes we do still teach radio beacons because they are a fantastic tool for navigation. If we have a GPS network failure being lost on a VFR flight is going to be the least of your problems. We will be very lucky if the power grid stays up phone networks will most likely fail if fact gps timing is in-bedded in so many things if we lose the GPS network it could be the start of a real life horror movie. Given that this hasent happened GPS can be relied upon for VFR nav. I have 3 GPS systems in my aircraft and they see multiple satellites lose a few no problem and 2 of which don't need aircraft power to work Ipad/Iphone. The GPS nav system would be one of the most reliable systems in my aircraft training to fly around if it wasent working is as stupid as learning to nav with the engine off or an aileron missing. Have a strategy for a failure but don't waste peoples time learning to navigate while hamstrung and doing it the old fashion way. The basic concepts behind navigation have changed, training to use the latest Oz runways or Avplan is way safer and more sensible. Training to do something is only useful if it is being used as over time that skill set slips I removed my radio nav aids from my plane as I cannot remember how to use them. My Mate is currently doing his Xcounty endorsement he is just shaking his head at the backward 1940's nav curriculum turning people off aviation is very very foolish. Training for something they are never going to use again stupid and not training to use a super awesome bit of tech which they are going to use as soon as they get their bit of paper is astonishingly stupid and backward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben87r Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 GPS DOES FAIL!!! You don’t have to lose the whole system worldwide, it only takes your system to fail. Ive had one fail in the worst possible scenario. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_1984 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Hi gents, One thing to point out here, and has been mentioned elsewhere, the difference between EFB and moving map GPS. The charts and documents are an approved replacement for paper copies, the issue is really using the GPS side of things. If this was to be disabled during training then you could use the EFB much the same way as paper. But even if the GPS is on, it can be used to supplement DR navigation. Just need to have an instructor who can understand the balance between the two. Best article I've seen about this is on the ozrunways blog, link below, scroll down to the question "But I heard we can’t use OzRunways as the primary means of navigation, how can it be legal?" Replacing paper – Sources of aeronautical information and primary means of navigation: what are the rules? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian00798 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Frankly the GPS system onboard an iPad isn’t that reliable, I have had it give me some badly incorrect position info before. Remember, if it’s not a TSO unit there is no guarantee of the accuracy of the position information, not to mention it is actually illegal to use for anything other than situational awareness. That’s why we teach people basic navigation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RobT Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 I have 3 independent GPS receivers in my plane and if the misses is there I have 4, 1 Garmin panel mount (certified but nowhere near as nice to use as ozrunways), 1 ipad mounted, 1or2 phones depending if I have a passenger how much backup do you think you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian00798 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Are any of them a TSO gps (ie gns430, that kind of thing)? If not you can’t use them as a primary source of navigation and as such must still use DR. Additionally if you don’t hold an NVFR/instrument rating you can’t use any of the nav aids for position fixing. Whether you like it or not, the rules are extremely clear on this one. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 IMO a student needs to understand navigation FIRST. I am a strong believer in the advantages of various electronic devices available today, and to use them efficiently you also require instruction on what information is "actually" displayed. I see too many people that don't even understand the term TMG. Following the magenta line ONLY and not flying a heading and being aware of drift etc. is pretty basic flying & if you have any intention to progress to further levels in your flying then a rude awakening will occur. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RobT Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Electronic Flight Bags are legal now and are what almost every new pilot will use. If they are under 35 they have grown up with screens forcing a 1940's era navigation technique is simply not sensible or as safe. If you nav with a map, compass, clock, calculator, dial ring you are using aids they are just outdated. Flying with EFB's require's a slightly different mind set understanding there strengths and limitations should be part of a students training. Will be a very interesting inquest if a student dies on a map nav exercise because they get lost or fly into weather that an EFB would have warned them about. Training should be relevant and what people are actually going to go flying with. Seems so stupid to train one way as soon as they get their ticket they throw their maps out and go flying with an Ipad with no training in its use. They used to paint the town names on the local pubs making navigation easier for aircraft does not happen anymore as it is not required unless you are training (go figure) Annoying new pilots with outdated techniques and acting like your "real" navigation makes you a better pilot is rubbish and wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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