Jay_1984 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 Hi all, Was at an avsafety seminar last night and wondered if others had heard of the proposed change to the southern step of Melbourne controlled airspace, in particular dropping the 2500' step from point almond across to BOM tower down to 2000'? First I heard of it but we were told that Airservices had been already consultation with industry on this one. 2017-2 - VIC RAPAC Minutes - Civil Aviation Safety Authority Civil Aviation Safety Authority › file › download Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aro Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 It is part of the GBAS instrument approach for RWY 34 at Melbourne. I have heard details before. My opinion is they want to effectively close the light aircraft lane (CTA down to 1000' or lower) but can't push that one through. So instead they come up with a proposal that is basically within the rules but will be unworkable in practice. Then when they get too many TCAS RAs etc. for aircraft flying the approach they can't shut down the Melbourne approach, so are "forced" to NOTAM a restricted area closing the light aircraft lane. The proposal has YMML traffic (up to A380) at 2500', as I understand it turning onto final, with VFR traffic OCTA at 2000. At 2000 VFR is "clear of cloud" so your cloud base could be e.g. 2100 with the Melbourne traffic in cloud. (If an A380 passes 500' above you, I'm not sure whether you are better off seeing it or not seeing it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Thoughts? Just some of my thoughts since you asked and I have time on my hands:- I keep tabs on proceedings at RAPAC and provide input to a rep on my favourite topics - I have more issues with pilots who seem unaware of the recommended procedures so eastbound traffic at my height annoys me - being Melbourne, cloud commonly requires us to fly westbound lower than recommended - I have more concerns with the north-eastern lane given the terrain and guidance given on altitudes to fly at - I have more issues with frequent parachute drops at Pt Ormond right over the purple dots of the lane - radio calls on multiple frequencies however students can easily miss calls when focussing on other things (we could discuss what they should be focussing on at the time) - CASA's 2011 Aeronautical Study of Melbourne is a bit dated now but still some current discussion points with recommendations not yet addressed https://www.casa.gov.au/file/119311/download?token=TN_Ip1Rp 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love to fly Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Last night at the AvSafety Seminar the AirServices rep showed a slide showing an average of only 2 aircraft per day going through the lane between 2000' and 2500' during the month the stats were based on. I found this amazing. Later on I realised I hadn't taken note of which month. If it was winter I guess there would be reduced traffic at that height. But think that over a 12 month period the statistics might show more than 2 per day ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aro Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 To cross over with another thread, that box with the recommended procedures only shows up in OzRunways if you zoom in so far that you can't actually see any useful features on the map. People who don't use paper maps may not be aware of it. My understanding of the proposal is it will have Eastbound at 1500, Westbound at 2000 and RPT at 2500. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 I stopped going to Av... Seminars after their abysmal attempts to tell us about the details in the approaching Part 61. In general, I'd always thought they were preaching to the converted i.e. those who I thought should be going to them never do go to them - off topic, perhaps another thread some other time. The last CASA seminar that I attended was with CASA appoints new Stakeholder Manager - Australian Flying. The venue could hold 200+ people and I had hoped that there'd be that many local pilots with an interest in giving feedback on regulation reform as CASA calls it, but no. Perhaps a dozen of us there, mainly old codgers. He got a clear message that priority is to fix Part 61 - still a long way off that let alone completing the conversion of CAAPs to ACs with guidelines of what the new regs really mean. AND, don't even think of implementing Part 91 until all of the guidance material is also complete. Bottom line is that one must follow a number of CASA comms channels to see what is being discussed - by the time it gets to an AvS... Seminar it is too late to influence the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 To cross over with another thread, that box with the recommended procedures only shows up in OzRunways if you zoom in so far that you can't actually see any useful features on the map. People who don't use paper maps may not be aware of it. AvPlan seems to switch to the VTC at an appropriate scale and the note is easily readable on my iPad mini at the scale I choose when flying there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsam Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 AvPlan seems to switch to the VTC at an appropriate scale and the note is easily readable on my iPad mini at the scale I choose when flying there. FYI, I have both AvPlan and OzRunways. Whilst the OzRunways “Hybrid VFR” map seems to require a bit more zoom/expansion for that inset-note to appear, pre-selecting the “Moorabbin Inset” map whilst flying in that vicinity provides all the zoom-out & pan flexibility you are likely to want in that area. That way the note remains always visible with that inset map. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aro Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 It's not just whether you can see the note, it's whether someone who doesn't know it's there will find it in their normal use of the map - preferably at the flight planning stage. There are other notes on that map too - what about the note about the aerobatic area, or the notes about flying east of the CTR and the north eastern VFR route? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsam Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 It's not just whether you can see the note, it's whether someone who doesn't know it's there will find it in their normal use of the map - preferably at the flight planning stage.There are other notes on that map too - what about the note about the aerobatic area, or the notes about flying east of the CTR and the north eastern VFR route? Agreed. The Moorabbin Aerobatic area, and Melbourne Inland route VFR track is marked on the VTC. Whether one plans with paper maps, or EFB (AvPlan or OzRunways) one needs to view all maps thoroughly and take note of details relevant to your flight plan. That necessitates many lines on many paper maps, or lots of zooming in & out on the EFB across the Melbourne area. Airservices could help by including consistent notes across all scales of maps in this area. Perhaps the other capital cities experience similar inconsistencies across their differently scaled maps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aro Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 The Moorabbin Aerobatic area, and Melbourne Inland route VFR track is marked on the VTC. There are also text notes similar to the one for the coastal route- not just lines on the map. How many ipad users know the notes exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 ... the notes about flying east of the CTR and the north eastern VFR route? Very important, a thorough study of a paper VTC is needed as it is not obvious on the paper chart and I cannot see it at all on AvPlan. I only knew about it from my memory of using the paper chart. .... what about the note about the aerobatic area ...? What about it (one of my favourite topics so I am interested)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aro Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 What about it (one of my favourite topics so I am interested)? My question was whether people who don't use paper charts are aware of the note. The text is "REMAIN NORTH OF RAILWAY LINE TO AVOID AEROBATIC AREA" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 My question was whether people who don't use paper charts are aware of the note. aah, that note, thanks I'd forgotten about that one.Back in 2008, RAPAC agreed to move that aerobatic area due to urban growth - about half of that area is now unusable for aerobatics and no action to move it on the charts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 VTC should always be looked at as a separate reference to a WAC, it’s also important to keep updating to the latest version; VTC changes have a lot more consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsam Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Another earlier (2010) paper-based guide to the Melbourne basin can be found here: https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/pilots/download/melbourne.pdf I keep this .pdf on my iPad in iBooks as an historic reference. Many aspects of that older guide are part of CASA’s online “OnTrack” guide, but you’d need an internet signal if consulting it whilst airborne... Best to do your homework at home! OnTrack | Civil Aviation Safety Authority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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