red750 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 CASA has determined that the crash of a KingAir into the DFO complex at Essendon was the result of the rudder trim being set to full left rudder at the time of takeoff. This should have been detected in the preflight checklist. The checklist should also have revealed that the cockpit voice recorder was not functioning. Pilot error at fault in Essendon DFO plane crash, report finds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Perhaps we will get some words that make more sense of what's happened here, than this disjointed string of comments. . Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 CASA has determined that the crash of a KingAir into the DFO complex at Essendon was the result of the rudder trim being set to full left rudder at the time of takeoff. This should have been detected in the preflight checklist. The checklist should also have revealed that the cockpit voice recorder was not functioning.Pilot error at fault in Essendon DFO plane crash, report finds We all knock the media when they report a "cessna" has crashed so perhaps RED you could edit the thread title. CASA haven't determined anything, the ATSB have. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Investigation: AO-2017-024 - Loss of control and collision with terrain involving B200 King Air, VH-ZCR at Essendon Airport, Victoria on 21 February 2017 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red750 Posted September 24, 2018 Author Share Posted September 24, 2018 My apologies for the error. Unfortunately, I don't have authority to alter headings, and the post is more than 15 minutes old, so I cannot edit the post either. Should not have rushed into posting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 One of the rudder trim cables was broken in the crash so lots of force, probably enough to move the jack screw all the way. The report fails to mention this possibility. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 so lots of force, probably enough to move the jack screw all the way. . The collar can not move the leadscrew, it's impossible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Source: Adelaide Now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 I find it difficult to believe faced with a lot of control force required that the pilot would not have attempted to trim to reduce the pressure. It's the natural thing to do in those circumstances.... Trimming in the wrong direction??? Has been known to happen BUT?? The faster the airspeed the more the load on the pedals with incorrect trim. No mention of auto feather capability or how much power the engines were delivering on initial climb (such as it was). Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Well that didn't take long; widows of US golfers to sue just announced by Melbourne Herald Sun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 The way the plane burned and how much evidence was really left makes conjecture and a " best guess" the substantial part of this finding. Not surprised at the involvement of Lawyers who would have been waiting for an outcome. The passengers didn't do anything wrong. Photographs of the plane in the air and the position of the flight controls would have aided somewhat. (they are always useful). Early in the piece we knew both engines were turning . from images. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 The collar can not move the leadscrew, it's impossible. I am saying that the rudder trim cable could have pulled on (rotated) the Jack screw during the crash sequence just as if the pilot was manipulating the control. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Well that didn't take long; widows of US golfers to sue just announced by Melbourne Herald Sun Well theLawyers are going to find it a lot different to an American lawsuit. Anyway, must be terrible for the families. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 I thought the amount of talking the pilot did on the radio when he could have been flying the plane was a problem. How were all those maydays going to help in that situation? 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 In controlled airspace it's more relevant.. Not saying it's helping to repeat it. But the pilot was certainly under pressure to try and manage the plane so I'm not going to be picky.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 How were all those maydays going to help in that situation? A sign of panic me thinks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 American Widows, no brainer they were going to sue Max’s estate. 260 odd kilos overweight, pilot error determined, won’t be hard to win it, only real winners are the blood sucking lawyers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aro Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 I am saying that the rudder trim cable could have pulled on (rotated) the Jack screw during the crash sequence just as if the pilot was manipulating the control. Appendix B in the report details the examination of the trim actuator. It seems they pretty thoroughly investigated this possibility. I thought the amount of talking the pilot did on the radio when he could have been flying the plane was a problem. How were all those maydays going to help in that situation? According to the timeline, the mayday calls were in the last 3.5 seconds before impact. I suspect the pilot had realized that the situation was unrecoverable. Overall the report seems pretty good to me. Generally there are multiple pieces of evidence listed for the conclusions, and it avoids speculation where there is no evidence. They were probably very careful, knowing it was likely to be scrutinized by the lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 When would full left rudder trim normally be used? When the RH engine is stopped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Trim is there to remove the effort of holding the rudder against assymetric forces with engine failure .. The largest application of rudder is normally required at V1 plus when the plane is just able to be controlled by most of the rudder deflection. There is a limiting pressure required of the design which was about 200 Lbs rudder effort Maximum.. It's assumed you can hold this for a while but trim it out as you retract flap and increase speed. IF you can manage it do it then as It's certainly an effort, and something better to do without. Cleaned up and in cruise you need less trim. but slowing down If you need power to fly level you will need more trim. Just before the flare it's common to have the supporting pilot( PNF) centre the trim on command from the PF and call "trim centred". or the plane will tend to yaw the other way under the influence of the trim when power is removed on the good engine. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 I should have read Appendix B before posting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 I thought the amount of talking the pilot did on the radio when he could have been flying the plane was a problem. How were all those maydays going to help in that situation? People can go totally irrational when facing certain death. I've heard some very bizarre 'mayday calls', one where the pilot just kept screaming "help help help" without ever releasing the button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 So how could the rudder trim have been left in that position by the previous pilot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 My thought: A group of guys over here on holiday. Plenty of yahooing. Hey! Let's mess with the knobs and buttons while the pilot is not looking at them. Who was sitting in the front right hand seat? Was he a clown who decided to prank the pilot? You can't prove otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Dumb question perhaps but why do you need rudder trim in a twin engine aircraft? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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