turboplanner Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Because we cant (RAA) get night rating or night circuits endorsements. It will always happen. NVFR or Night Visual Flight Rules is a method of navigating when there is enough light to see the horizon. With NVFR you give up most of the ability to do a forced landing without serious injury becaise there are other factors when you get down low. It never was a safeguard to help you land after last light, because at that time you have no light for visual reference in the black holes. It also requires separate P&O and Planning to Day VFR, so is usually trained for after a PPL, and would add unnecessary expense to RAA. It costs nothing to flight plan for arrival (incl holding) at least 10 minutes before last light, and making a decision for a Precautionary Landing or closer alternate well before that if you get delayed en route. Ten minutes is the legal limit, not what you'd normally plan for. http://vfrg.casa.gov.au/pre-flight-planning/preparation/daylight-and-darkness/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 I don't get it, I ran out of daylight once due to poor planning and complications, we finished up in a paddock while there was still enough light to do so. I only did that once. This is the second time two people have died doing this that I know of. It's like people think it can't happen to them she'll be right mate we'll manage some how. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Many years ago a mate of mine went to Lightning Ridge from Newcastle and ended up in a duststorm with strong headwinds. Duststorms make it dark as well and he eventually saw headlight s on the Coonamble- Walgett road (I think it was so) decided to land on the road in poor vis and fading light .Late in the flare he had to do a pullup due to a cattle grid appearing suddenly and it stalled and the wheels came up through the lower wings when it fell to the road,. pretty much writing it off. It was a lovely Hornet Moth. Sort of like a cabin side by side Tiger moth. A couple of crates of eggs were onboard and not one was broken. Someone came along in a land Rover and they got a rope around the tailwheel and pulled it into the bush. away from the passing traffic .Next bit of bad luck was the insurance hadn't been renewed and had expired a week or so before. In this instance I don't think the dust was forecast . and it wasn't a last light problem.. The plane wasn't fast enough to outrun the dust .Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Many years ago a mate of mine went to Lightning Ridge from Newcastle and ended up in a duststorm with strong headwinds. Duststorms make it dark as well and he eventually saw headlight s on the Coonamble- Walgett road (I think it was so) decided to land on the road in poor vis and fading light .Late in the flare he had to do a pullup due to a cattle grid appearing suddenly and it stalled and the wheels came up through the lower wings when it fell to the road,. pretty much writing it off. It was a lovely Hornet Moth. Sort of like a cabin side by side Tiger moth. A couple of crates of eggs were onboard and not one was broken. Someone came along in a land Rover and they got a rope around the tailwheel and pulled it into the bush. away from the passing traffic .Next bit of bad luck was the insurance hadn't been renewed and had expired a week or so before. In this instance I don't think the dust was forecast . and it wasn't a last light problem.. The plane wasn't fast enough to outrun the dust .Nev Yes that one was bad luck but he still survived so I think he got it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 I don't think any of us can claim that we were not trained to avoid these problems. To have not been trained you would have had to have been hiding under a stone and completely disregarded all the written material we all see. Usually this forum is complaining about too much control coming from RAAus. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 I think it has more to do with self disipline than training if people can't work out not to fly in the dark they shouldn't be flying. Gethereitus is deadly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Good God, I don't think I've seen an ultralight destroyed so thoroughly, for a very long time. This has to be a high speed impact, surely? - the Brumby can't be that light in its construction, that it collapses like a pack of cards on impact. https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/law-order/light-plane-crash-at-leigh-creek/news-story/e7720b4e33910bd5ddf65111a6727eb2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JG3 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 I just stepped outside to see how dark it is at about 6:30pm. Completely dark, no horizon, very slim moon giving no light..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JG3 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Surely the news and discussion of this disaster will be all the training any of us needs to not do the same..... Don't start out too late for somewhere too distant...... Flight Planning 101. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Good God, I don't think I've seen an ultralight destroyed so thoroughly, for a very long time. This has to be a high speed impact, surely? - the Brumby can't be that light in its construction, that it collapses like a pack of cards on impact. https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/law-order/light-plane-crash-at-leigh-creek/news-story/e7720b4e33910bd5ddf65111a6727eb2 Stall-spin or spatial disorientation, it's always going to end this way regardless of the airframe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Too low for a BRS to save them, even IF they had one ? Condolences to the families, it’s a sad day....... Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 I reckon he flew it straight into the ground, at cruise speed, because he thought there was air in front of him. That's no stall result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Good God, I don't think I've seen an ultralight destroyed so thoroughly, for a very long time. This has to be a high speed impact, surely? - the Brumby can't be that light in its construction, that it collapses like a pack of cards on impact. https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/law-order/light-plane-crash-at-leigh-creek/news-story/e7720b4e33910bd5ddf65111a6727eb2 That's typical of the vertical plunge debris which occurs when the pilot loses control in cloud and drops like a rock. What we've been seeing lately is aircraft doing forced landings and hitting a wing or two in scrub, sometimes even with the undercarriage intacts, and people describing the aircraft as strong and able to take massive punishment, but this was like the photos you see on ATSB files. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Turbo, I can't see vertical plunge damage here, with the typically concertinaed cabin. The cabin here appears to be folded underneath the fuselage, seeming to indicate the nose went in at a low angle, dug in, and then folded under. There was no cloud involved here, conditions were reported as fine and clear, with light winds. It would appear that simple spatial disorientation in the dark, sucked him into terra firma. (photo courtesy of Simon Cross) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Turbo, I can't see vertical plunge damage here, with the typically concertinaed cabin. The cabin here appears to be folded underneath the fuselage, seeming to indicate the nose went in at a low angle, dug in, and then folded under. (photo courtesy of Simon Cross) [ATTACH]39437[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Someone might work out what attitude it was in when it hit, and whether there was any direction at the time (some photos show scattered debris), but that's consistent with several hundred cases I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Turbo, I can't see vertical plunge damage here, with the typically concertinaed cabin. The cabin here appears to be folded underneath the fuselage, seeming to indicate the nose went in at a low angle, dug in, and then folded under. There was no cloud involved here, conditions were reported as fine and clear, with light winds. It would appear that simple spatial disorientation in the dark, sucked him into terra firma. (photo courtesy of Simon Cross) [ATTACH]39437[/ATTACH] I agree. I think he was flying all the way into the ground. CFIT. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 I have had a good look at Poteroo's Brumby and I don't think I've seen a "visually" stronger Looking RAA aircraft. So many rivets and a super strong undercarriage. The empty weight of 365 (?) Kg seems to support this as well... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 There was no cloud involved here, conditions were reported as fine and clear, with light winds. It would appear that simple spatial disorientation in the dark, sucked him into terra firma. No, no cloud here, I was just using loss of control in cloud and the subsequent drop to the ground as an example of similar aircraft damage. In this case it looks like the horizon was lost after last light, with the same result - major destruction of the aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico13 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Some of the news report showed the impact site better and there was certainly an impact some twenty or thirty metres behind the final resting place. So yes it looks like it was flown into the ground at cruise speed or higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 The lights were on, pilot called a Mayday. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harro Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Very sad outcome, whatever the chain of events. One thing that puzzles me... William Creek to Leigh Creek is approximately 150nm; Brumby 610 cruise is approximately 100 knts plus; Flight time would normally be 90 minutes plus departure circuit time of 10 minutes, so 100 minutes all up to overhead Leigh Creek; Estimated time of departure was 4pm (according to news reports); Emergency services alerted at 6:24pm (according to news reports). This indicates a flight time of say 4pm to 6:15pm (around 135 minutes) for a 100 minute flight??? From the above, if all had gone well, with bugger-all margin for error, they would have touched down around 5:50pm, just before last light... cutting it very fine, but still before last light ( Official Sunset at Leigh Creek is 17:28, Last Light 17:55 ). The apparent extra 1/2 hour of flight time needs to be factored into working out the possible chain of events leading to such a tragic outcome. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Possibly diverted to look at Maree Man on the way, a very popular diversion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbear Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 I’ve been caught in a situation like this in a thruster many years ago luckily someone heard us coming in and put car lights on the Strip there was plenty of light at 500ft but nothing at ground level asi hard to read as no dash lighting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 About 20 minutes I think it is. Also consider the folly of landing into a setting sun at an unfamiliar aerodrome if that's what the forecast wind indicates. Plan everything in advance, Google earth is your friend. Nev The mandatory latest time of arrival is 10 minutes before last light, which will probably have you landing after sunset in dusk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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